BergDonk's DR650s

Discussion in 'Thumpers' started by BergDonk, Dec 20, 2010.

  1. Lerxstdawg

    Lerxstdawg Wait...what?

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    You’re going to need a doctors certificate to get through the airport metal detectors

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  2. JagLite

    JagLite Long timer Supporter

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    I was surprised that the Ti rod and screws in my leg never sets off the metal detectors :scratch
  3. William Wolfen

    William Wolfen Long timer

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    Titanium is why. If it was steel you'd likely set them off.
  4. Ohio_Danimal

    Ohio_Danimal If I die trying, at least I tried Supporter

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    this mess is still in my right ankle...never set anything off.
    [​IMG]
  5. Chip Seal

    Chip Seal Long timer Supporter

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    Titanium wire around vertebrae 3 through 7. Always mention it at airports. First time I went through the gates, I didn't say anything, alarm went off. Explained why. They gave me a choice, private room or right there. I said fuck it, right here! I was first in line too. It was 04:30 am. People in line were not happy to wait. Had to unbutton everything and remove shoes.
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  6. Dakar Dan

    Dakar Dan Long timer

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    Great build thread, BD. Noticed your box of "assembly lube" in the background: would you rate this as a 12 or 24 Stella procedure ;-)
  7. Nogoodnamesleft

    Nogoodnamesleft Long timer

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    Hmmm..
    Ok.. Got it.. next years calender amended.
    Now i have.. leave a week early for PI GP packed with a 790 kit and 3 or 4 cartons of that Pact Beer Co, brickworks brown ale stuff..
    I best start bracing my subframe soon.. could be a bit top heavy... :lol3:lol3

    Good news on your foot.
    Hope you're back riding before the year finishes.
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  8. BergDonk

    BergDonk Old Enough to Know Better

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    Back in 1976 I had an off road racing late on a Sat afternoon during the last practice session of the day. My bad, made an assumption I'd end up out near the edge of the track as I committed to an outside overtake into the late afternoon sun, so a bit blinded. Assumption was correct, but I was on the wrong side of the edge of the seal and the resulting tumble on a mate's Z1B resulted in a broken elbow for me, and a bike that needed to be trailered back to Sydney instead of ridden like it had been to the track. Unfortunately that got complicated for my mate, and it was the last time I saw him, a longer story for perhaps another day, but involved a car crash and a plane crash and still has bad memories for me.

    Whatever, my broken elbow got complicated. It was initially pinned, but then infection set in and took 6 weeks before it could be opened up again to sort it out. The pin was removed and it was screwed together instead. The damage from the infection etc means to this day I only have about 20-30% movement of my right elbow, which is a key reason I put a lot of effort into my bar, seat, peg relationship, and struggle standing on steep uphills. Subseqent surgeries made it better, but not 'fixed'. One surgery about 10 years on resulted in relocation of my ulna nerve, which also coincided with an attempt to remove the screws. The surgeon reckoned they needed to come out, and should have come out years before, and didn't understand why they were still there. Suited me too, as the screw heads stuck up above the surface of the bone and snagging them every now and then was excruciating.

    As I came out of the anaesthetic, my arm hurt like buggery. All that was supposed to happen was a small incision and then unwind the screws. Apparently it didn't work, so they sent down to the hospital maintenance workshop for a couple of cold chisels and a big hammer and attempted to chop the screw heads off after sterilisation, which didn't work either, they just bent. So they bent them some more and pounded the bent over heads into my forearm where they still are. My wife was mates with the theatre nurses and the story has become a bit of a legend.

    When I was first referred to him with my elbow, his practice had a waiting room with 4 or 5 consulting rooms leading off it. Each of those rooms had a back door into a corridor, so something of a producton line. When my turn came, I went into the room, was seated up on the bed and the nurse clipped my X Rays up onto the viewer. When the back door rattled a while later he stepped in and looked straight up at my X Rays, not looking at me or acknowledging my presence at all. I thought; "Here we go again". Then he turned and looked me in the eye and said to me; "Who fucked this up?" "Yes!" I thought, finally someone in the medical profession told me what I already knew.

    The same surgeon subsequently did my first 3 knee surgeries and he was a top bloke. Each time when I reminded him, he reminisced about the cold chisels....

    Anyway, I asked my foot surgeon when the metal work should be removed and he said never, unless it causes me problems. I guess I'll find out.



    The Stella box keeps all my DR650 gaskets, O rings, waskers etc in one place. Seems to do a good job too. I don't mind a Stella from time to time. A lot of my beer choices are based on what's on special on the day, and Stella is one of those, Aldi I think.




    [​IMG]

    Here's my inside beer fridge today, there's one in the shed too. Ones I buy, on special or not, is Coopers Sparkling Ale, Coopers Vintage and Pact Brickworks Brown Ale.
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  9. Ohio_Danimal

    Ohio_Danimal If I die trying, at least I tried Supporter

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    fuckin A Berg...
    Was actually considering having surgery before April 1st my last day at work, while I still have paid health insurance.
    You have convinced me to hold pat
    Thank you. I am not in pain...just a little discomfort now and then when first standing. All 7 screw heads can be seen and felt under the skin
  10. BergDonk

    BergDonk Old Enough to Know Better

    Joined:
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    Anyway, back to my Nova PC790 build. I've been struggling with a decision the last few days. The quandary has been about squish, the following post from a few days ago refers.



    I mentioned what squish I'd achieved to my mate Frank Pons and I could feel his immediate concern over the phone. Frank has been building reliable race winning engines for many many years. Known initially for 2T development in both road racing and MX, his CV includes Aust championship winning on and off road bikes for over 40 years and a stint with Cagiva with Mat Mladin in 500GP, and he's sometimes known as Frank 'the File'. I highly value Frank's opinion. One of his mates, Ian X, consults to Yamaha and Harrop Engineering among others and also knows a thing or 3 about winning 4T engine building. Frank spoke to Ian who agreed with Frank, that 1.25 - 1.5 mm would be a good target and that less than 1 mm is a concern for detonation and possibly head piston contact with due to rod stretch, crank flex and thermal piston expansion. I also spoke to a guy I know who has 40 years of building winning rally cars, think 2-3 litre 4cyl twin cam 4V etc among other iterations, and he aims for 1.3 mm for naturally aspirated engines. They all reiterated that tuning for US fuel is different to Oz fuel. They all have huge experience building engines, but none specific to DR650s.

    Then of course Jeff/PC developed the kit and there are numerous 790s out there, all seemingly runnning along happily if there were no assembly issues, like ring gaps. Jeff/PC supplies stock base gaskets as part of the kit and we assume most are just assembled without checking squish.

    All I want is an engine that runs sweetly and reliably, and doesn't have to be big Hp, it'll be enough, stock its been enough to do the ADV thing. So I have highly credible and somewhat conflicting opinions from either side of the Pacific; "What do I do?"

    I also spoke to @micko01 who buillt his and Tan's 790s this time last year in Holland following which they toured South America and just recently traversed Australia the hard way, heavily laden at times in severe heat and heavy sand; http://advrider.com/index.php?threa...from-end-to-end.1037908/page-77#post-33818723

    Mick recalled that he had been concerned with valve clearance, big cams as well as big valves. He had sufficient clearance and thinks he measured about 1.2 mm squish as a bit of a sideline, it wasn't his focus. 1.2 mm would be consistent with a stock base gasket based on my measurements.

    So after a few days deliberation, googling etc, I pulled the top end and fitted a stock base gasket for a bit more than Jeff's and a bit less than Frank etc al's preferred squish, around 1.10-1.15 based on my earlier measurements.

    My ring compressor worked great again, barrel slipped right over 2nd time this time.

    Right or wrong, dunno, but done now unless I get compelling advice otherwise.
  11. wiz.au

    wiz.au Ceased riding for now.

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    'Walk Through Metal Detectors' (which are basically a big wire loop / coil) operate on a "volume" setting. The newer ones also allow a 'value per segment' setting, at foot, hip, chest, head and then combined total, usually.

    The idea is that either one large block of metal, or 10x tiny bits spread all over the body, create the same 'volume' of metal being detected, and depending on what level the trigger is set to, if the alarm goes off or not.

    So it's a combination of your plates and screws, plus belt buckle, any metal lasts in your shoes, the laces eyelets, your glasses frames, the chewing gum foil wrapper in your pocket, all added up together.

    Of course if you step through one foot at a time, right through so your leading foot is clear of the detector coil before you bring your other foot through.....only 'some' metal is in the detector coil at a time => no trigger. :-)
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  12. Chip Seal

    Chip Seal Long timer Supporter

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    "As I came out of the anaesthetic, my arm hurt like buggery. All that was supposed to happen was a small incision and then unwind the screws. Apparently it didn't work, so they sent down to the hospital maintenance workshop for a couple of cold chisels and a big hammer and attempted to chop the screw heads off after sterilisation, which didn't work either, they just bent. So they bent them some more and pounded the bent over heads into my forearm where they still are. My wife was mates with the theatre nurses and the story has become a bit of a legend."

    Geez, no JIS screwdriver available?
  13. Ohio_Danimal

    Ohio_Danimal If I die trying, at least I tried Supporter

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    or at least a sharp ass set of side cutters. Would have had those heads off cleaner than trying to fucking CHISEL them off, Good God the thought
  14. Nogoodnamesleft

    Nogoodnamesleft Long timer

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    If thats not a perfect picture of "christmas spirit" right there, i don't know what is. :drink:thumb

    And now i see the justification of the full beer fridge.:D
    Some quality thinking, drinking time at your place i figure.
    I'm now remembering why i gave up on hot rodding v8's 30 years ago.

    Bikes are the same.
    I chased my tail for weeks trying to figure out my planned harley rebuild, with cams, big bore, head work etc etc.
    I half understand the cam hesitation you mentioned earlier as well now.
    At some point you just want to have some answers, not more questions.
    I'm glad you're listing your thought process along the way for us all.

    I went bigger cams and mild headwork, but a much smarter man than me, talked me out of the really big cams and heads i thought i wanted, which would have just lead to more questions and problems..
    Thats before you even go into of the quality of the products you chose to fit..
    After i went through the solid gear drive options versus a hydraulic conversion with bigger oil pump, versus the standard old school spring set up i had, that then also brought into play crank runout, cam lift and duration, adjustable push rods etc.. etc..
    my head just exploded..
    when the "correct" top end set up then came into it play with it all, that would have to be all properly checked like you mention above, i gave up and ended just going with a proven combination.
    Somewhere along the way I'd forgotten this magical engine i was planning, still had to go back into a 2 wheel tractor..:lol3


    But someone has to jump into the deep end of the DR swimming pool first,
    just so the rest of us can follow along later on.
    :beer
    :thumb
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  15. Dalmatino

    Dalmatino Been here awhile

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    That's what I figured regarding the transmission! Wonder what the damage will be on one of these?

    Appreciate the honest input on the fearing and fully understand the subjective nature of ergonomics. What works for one may not for the other!
    Having owned 3 Dr's throughout the last 17 years (between the 790 kit and Yenkro setup) I think I got the hook in my mouth again...damn!
    And it's only been 4 years since last one...
    Cant wait for your review once done.
    Now that's a proper fridge lol...
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  16. dmsantam

    dmsantam DR and FZ1 rider

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    My understanding is that a tighter squish clearance reduces the likelihood of detonation.

    I don't see how fuel should affect the choice of squish clearance.

    my opinion: I would go with Jeff's suggestions, because they've been implemented in many builds, and there have been no reported problems with piston to head contact.

    I think that will work just fine :beer
  17. BergDonk

    BergDonk Old Enough to Know Better

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    Dunno, but one version is that too tight or too loose can initiate detonation.

    I assume octane rating has an influence. And its still not clear to me what differences between Oz and US fuel might be that could influence the outcome.

    As mentioned previously, US jetting specs are invariably too rich here in Oz, however Derek/Motolab reckons that's the case in the US too. A classic example is MXRob's FCR jetting. It works OK, well enough perhaps here, but is much better again with a version of DR Steve's leaner spec.

    :dunno
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  18. lifeofliberty

    lifeofliberty If you're bored, you're not living

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    Got my pins, screws and what really looks like an Allen key in my ankle, back in '83. Still there too. Some of the heads poke up and it can cause issues with certain shoes and boots, but I've learned to be careful with it. Doc said it could probably stay there for life, or remove it, my choice. I don't like surgery, so haven't had it taken out.

    All the rest of the metal I carried (except my face) was removed from the hip and femur. Weighs close to 2 lbs or so, enough there to start an Erector set. These foreign objects WERE causing issues and I had this all removed when I had insurance. Never bothered a metal detector however when it was all in. Now all the scar tissue and fascia damage is paining me, but I can't do much about that except keep moving. Moving helps the most.

    Did you get that 790 monster running yet? Or did I miss that part somewhere?
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  19. BergDonk

    BergDonk Old Enough to Know Better

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    Engine is ready go, but still sitting on the bench.

    As soon as I can get my foot in a riding boot I want to check my oil thermostat again, to confirm its leak free, then I'll swap engines with either the new leak fee cooler assembly, of the stock arrangement.

    Early next week I hope.
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  20. DeepBarney

    DeepBarney International Bumbler

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    Part of that reason is because US fuel uses a different (often as a whole lower) range of octane ratios and different chemical blends (especially our winter blend). Our fuel doesn't need to have the expected "shelf life" yours would due to generally higher consumption even in the remote areas. These chemical differences would, I imagine, equate to differences in thermal ignition points, combustion rates and duration. Which in turn needs to be accounted for and dealt with by timing adjustments. Adjusting ignition timing obviously deals with that issue, but when you're dealing with the kind of high performance motors the people BD has consulted they'll be likely to have less LSA (lobe separation angle) and more valve overlap designed into their cams than the average engine (certainly a DR) and more sometimes needs to be done. Cam phasing is one trick to help with this, and certainly would warrant checking to make sure you won't be inviting valve to piston handshakes under hard accelerating at high temps. Also things like cooler combustion temps, thermal expansion, and other black arts (err... I mean sciences) I don't fully comprehend all play a factor in designing and tuning the motors they deal with. Is any of this relative to a DR even one with all of BD's modifications? Not sure, though I air on the side of cautiously optimistic it doesn't. But there's also a reason I'm not assembling race winning motors instead of drilling deep holes in the ground (geologist).

    Just thought I'd pop in, rattle off my 2¢ and attempt to rationalize why they say fuel differences area a factor in determining squish.

    Also squish does help with detonation issues, but much in the same way jam helps a piece of toast taste better. Too much and you'll cause other issues or induce the very one you were attempting to solve, and what's acceptable is highly variable on so many other factors it ain't funny (bread type, combustion chamber design/valve layout, thickness, static and dynamic compression ratios, fuel characteristics, did you put butter on it first...


    ... excuse me I need to go make a sandwich.
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