BMW's new parallel twins - F800/650GS (merged) threadfest...

Discussion in 'Parallel Universe' started by kejago, Oct 11, 2005.

  1. jp4evr

    jp4evr I'm a dad, have a ceegar

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    .

    Fastest growing segment perhaps - but is it the largest revenue producing segment.

    Not arguing your point that this would be a great bike - and probably get my money, but we have to keep in mind that there is huge passion here, but probably more pure dollars in the long-standing cruiser / sport bike market.

    [/opinion] :D
  2. Django Loco

    Django Loco Banned

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    You are right JP, in my passion for our favorite bikes I left out a couple things.
    The revenue is NOT there for adventure bikes, not yet anyway.

    And thats why the suits stare into space when one of us "Adventure Nuts" starts on a rant.:lol3 And another bit of hyperbole on my part......the fastest growing segment is for the UK only. Don't know about the USA, I know the niche is picking up speed in the USA but don't know for sure if it is, indeed, "the fastest growing segment". Probably not, but it is making a blip on the radar for sure.

    Yep, its that Cruiser fly in the oinment thing. All the big four are totally
    high on cruisers. You know what it is they love most about them? I'll
    tell you.........purchase of accessories at the time of new bike purchase.
    Its a huge number, an astounding number. Additionally, post purchase numbers are big too. Think in the $5000 range, this for most metric cruisers
    like the Star and others.
  3. raider

    raider Big red dog

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    Dear BMW,

    [​IMG]

    Please take this bike, add your modern 800cc twin in lieu of the old 750 Yammie, and while you're at it add ABS (provided it's switchable on the fly), tubeless-but-spoked tyres, and factory luggage. And an optional big tank wouldn't hurt.

    Regards,

    Raider.

    PS: Yamaha and Honda, copy all of the above but use your 900 parallel twin and 750 V-twin respectively.
  4. heikkil

    heikkil Been here awhile

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    How big do you want? Stock Super Tenere has 26l.
  5. rob_evans

    rob_evans Adventurer

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    Haven't seen in mentioned here yet, but in this week's Motorcycle News (UK), there's a brief interview with Herbert Diess of BMW where he says:

    Currently we have the F800S and ST, but we will also be building an enduro version, like the GS, and a naked bike.

    No more details than that, though.

    Rob
  6. rallybug

    rallybug Local Yokel

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    There's a definite hole in the UK at least - the F650GS Dakar is £5695 ($9900) and the R1200GS is £8955 ($15500) - both on the road prices including tax etc.

    The F800S and ST split the difference at £5955 ($10300) and £6495 ($11250) respectively, so a GS version of the F800 could fill the gap quite nicely.

    Add in the hint I've had from Kawasaki UK, when I asked about why the KLR was no longer imported:

    As I asked about the KLR, that could mean a new bike based on the Er-6 650 parallel twin engine with some off-road capability :dunno

    I've asked a similar question to Suzuki UK over why the DR isn't imported anymore, but no response as yet :D
  7. Riteris

    Riteris Dessert Runner

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  8. Limper

    Limper Hot

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    Thanks for passing that along. Kawasaki seems in general to have made a decision to be much more proactive in their designs and production in recent years. Wouldn't be at all surprised to see a much updated version released for '07.
  9. Arch

    Arch Incurable Gearhead

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    Nice analysis, rallybug. That's why I was told that 650GS's prices were shaved so much late last year - to make more room in the line up (price-wise) for an upcoming "mid-size" version. I'm just trying to speed things up with this thread. :lol3
  10. jimmy650

    jimmy650 South Canol Racing Club

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    I also heard from a friend that knows a Kawasaki insider that a new KLR is on its way... might be good!
  11. Django Loco

    Django Loco Banned

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    Sure, profit margins are about the same for all models. What I'm referring to
    is overall sales numbers in the Adventure sports/touring niche. Overall these numbers are relatively small, especially within the big four.

    BMW represent less than 3% of the US motorcycle market. Their presence
    appears larger due to massive advertising available from car division revenues
    and some of the slickest ad campaigns out there.

    The GS is BMW's number one selling bike and yes, your right, dealers do VERY well with Adventure accessories and this is why we WILL see a GS version of the F800.

    The big four may finally be waking up from their slumber here. Sure, there is a ton of $$ to be made on Adventure accessories. Really, no different than the Cruiser niche, but the big four see small sales numbers (of bikes) so have ignored Adventure bikes pretty much.

    The reason? Has to do with the piss poor sales of Dual Sport bikes in the last
    ten years. Additionally, Yamaha still think because the TDM did poorly here that NO adventure bike will sell.....ever. Honda had a flop with the Transalp, so we never got the Africa Twin or anything else. Kawasaki think the KLR is their Adventure bike. I won't go there. They (the big four execs) seem to think an Adventure bike and a dual sport are the same thing.

    Most of the suits don't ride much, if they do they are either former dirt bike guys or road racers and now mostly sit in their cubicles. Many of the exec's i've met are really out of touch with trends, especially in California, where ALL trends begin and end.

    KTM (and Triumph to a lesser degree) have picked up on this potential niche and are offering lots of bling for the 950/990's. Of the big four in the US, only Suzuki are just now starting to see some action in the Adventure niche. (Wee Strom, Vstrom).

    They have responded with some pretty cheap, lame accessories for the Vstroms. BMW and KTM slaughter Suzuki in both quality and innovation of their accessories. But see, Suzuki are just "testing the waters" in this area.

    Very accurate Chris! Real riders are in the minority, and this is exactly what the Yam rep I spoke with implied when he said..."the numbers just aren't there"

    IMHO, these dudes are missing the boat. Has to do with the most important
    demographic in motorcycling. Baby Boomers. Our generation MADE Honda in
    1964 with "You meet the nicest people on a Honda" (read: ride a Honda and you will get Layed!! :lol3) and the Boomers have "made" the cruiser market happen. The Cruiser boom (since about 1994) have provided more profit for the big four (and HD obviously) than any niche in their history.

    But you know what? The boomer generation is broad and diverse. And now, what I see happening is that A LOT of retired guys are getting a GS or a KTM
    or a Tiger or a Vstrom and they are going riding. They are scrambling to get in
    that last bit a "Adventure" after being tied to jobs and family for the last 30
    years. The Adventure niche is going to be part on this and its just getting
    started. Once again, similar to the Cruiser guys: Older, have a few bucks,
    have some time to really go riding.

    The innovative companies will reap the spoils of this trend. Either that or I'm
    just passing gas......:freaky
  12. jp4evr

    jp4evr I'm a dad, have a ceegar

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    Ok - so we are all equally excited about the prospect of this bike. Now, can they bring it in at the weight or lower than the 650GS? That would be key. Otherwise, I'll just keep my Tiger - although not quite the same bike or comparable to what I might be expecting or projecting from BMW.

    Man, it get's me rollin' just thinking about this thing. Just have to convince the wifey.... At least I probably have another model year to work on it. :lol3
  13. Thinc2

    Thinc2 Paciugo

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    Make on like Arch spec'd out and I'll sell my DRZ400 and my 1150GS and live with just this one bike. (Or maybe buy an airhead to keep it company :)
  14. Thinc2

    Thinc2 Paciugo

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    But it does need to be somewhat light.

    Leichtgebau = Fahrvergnuegen :thumb
  15. wpbarlow

    wpbarlow Long timer Supporter

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    +1 week and +40 responses: maybe 3 "I'll buy one"'s. On a site purported to be for hard core adventure riders?:huh And that probably assumes a price point that probably won't be reached anyway.

    People get much better response when they ask interest in Honda bringing in the last generation TransAlp (designed in what, 1998?).

    I don't know Arch, your best bet on getting this bike to market might be if BMW doesn't lurk here :lol3
  16. Zapp22

    Zapp22 ZAPP - Tejas

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    hey, don't give up too easily: i read this blasted site 'cover to cover' and don't see THAT many people just volunteering "i think I'll rush out and buy a 12GS" either.... and that line has been THE adventure bike, easily dominating the market for years.. heck it invented the market.

    build it and they might come.....
    z
  17. Zapp22

    Zapp22 ZAPP - Tejas

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    Now this gets me stoked.... you're thinkin';. i am a product manager by trade having fought computer wars for years, successful [along with a LOT of other talent] at taking away compaq's lunch and resulting in their absorption into hp etc etc. All tricky chess games.

    Everything above [i edited and highlighted] is so, and one more HUGE factor. I'm a tad late for a Boomer but lets say I know the turf. here's the other factor: THE BOOM IN CRUISERS WILL MORPH INTO THE BOOM IN ADVENTURE BIKING, IRRESPECTIVE OF THE "REAL RIDER SKILLS", AND IRRESPECTIVE OF WHAT/HOW/WHICH THEY DEFINE "ADVENTURE". THE "ADVENTURE" IS FIRST AND FOREMOST INSIDE THE SKULL.

    The Boomers with a lot of energy, good fitness, and money, GET STINKING BORED WITH CRUISERS IN A BRIEF TIME PERIOD. THEY GO LOOKING FOR SOMETHING MORE SUBSTANTIAL THAN MOTORING TWO MILES TO STARBUCKS.

    So, my claim is that 50% of the run rate of the cruiser market is "up for grabs", and if it were my call, that's how we would do the advertising and promotions. Show the fat, lazy, slobs lollygagging around on their geezer-cruisers, then show a 50 year old athlete snatching air on an adventure bike at Moab, and say "pick your spot".

    z
  18. Django Loco

    Django Loco Banned

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    Good points all Zapp!
    I believe you've hit on some thing here, the cruiser market seems ripe for cherry picking. I think BMW have seen this for quite a while. An F800GS will only solidify their hold on the segment. But getting a Shadow rider on a
    $16,000 GS will not be easy, IMO.

    Bringing guys who already ride is certainly easier than getting re-entry guys back into the sport or total newbies. But the older H-D guys may be a tough
    sell, dunno.

    The aging boomers range from 48 to 65 (roughly) Most lie in the 56 to 62 area. But the guys 65 and older are starting to die off or give up riding. HD knows this and the result is HD buying Buell. (just my opinion) So if anything is gonna happen, it's got to happen soon.

    Bringing 50% over to Adventure bikes I think is unlikely but would be nice.
    If you told Yamaha tommorrow that even 20% of current cruiser riders were
    interested in an Adventure bike it would jolt them into action......NOW. Even at 20%, your looking at a huge number, well worth it for any company. Keep in mind, Cruisers represent close about 55% of ALL motorcycle sales and even
    more if you count cruiser specific accessories.

    Your ad campaign idea is brilliant. Or how about this: Bunch of tough ass one
    percenters hangin' in front of a bar out in the desert partying, choppers all lined up, tatooed ladies, hootin' & hollerin', the works.

    Suddenly they look out in the desert and see bikes coming out of a cloud of dust...... next thing you know a group of 6 grizzled adventure guys ride out of the desert. You could either have them pull up, pull off helmets to reveal a bunch of older but fit, graying riders.......or you could have them simply ride by the tough guys, cross the pavement and go right back out into the desert
    and dissapear. Appropriate caption to follow with new bike's logo.

    If guys like yourself, with some vision and knowledge of markets were inside one of the big four they might already be on top of this. Hell, we now see main stream commercials for medical care, investment funds and whatever, using older guys riding adventure bikes in their ads. Have you seen any of them? We are being co-opted. So the OEM's better hurry before the
    thing passes.......and the Boomers ride to a rest home.

    I don't believe the Cruiser boom will morph into the Adventure niche without a Hell of a lot of very good marketing by the OEM's, not to mention some very good product that will out do BMW and KTM on price, quality and innovation.

    Right now, the only ones paying attention to this segment are BMW, KTM,
    and maybe Triumph......but IMO, Triumph are getting very bad advice about
    the US market.......probably because Bloor doesn't trust Americans and has
    an All Brit lead team in Georgia who drive around into the country and talk to red necks and think they have the US market figured out. Now they have to eat that Rocket lll POS.

    I've blathered on, hijacking Arch's thread without ever answer the question:
    Would I buy an F800Gs?"

    Basically, No. BMW quality is clearly on a down slide and has been for about
    5 to 7 years The bikes are overly complicated with technology beyond their capability to make work reliabley over the long term, and frankly stuff most just don't need or want.

    BMW don't race. Big downside IMO. They come up with innovative new approaches that, in some cases, are of questionable value. Case in point:
    The F800 will have neither Tele or Para levers. Nor will it have shaft drive, a system so clearly Wrong for any bike headed for a hard life. So why is it still
    on the big GS? (I know, cause the BMW geeks like it don't wanna get their
    hands dirty!!)

    The F800 would have to really impress and even then I would wait
    until at least one model up grade (2 to 3 years?) and would buy an extended
    warranty.

    Their rapid prototyping is behind the Japanese, their metalurgy as well. Now that BMW are out sourcing parts to Croatia and other countries in eastern europe and Asia, they could be in for even more serious QC problems.

    But, IMO, the F800 is a step forward and I give kudos for not standing still. I see huge problems for many of their other models however.
    I think sales figures will show this at year's end. :1drink
  19. Mudhen

    Mudhen Foul Adventurer

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    This sounded very appealing to me at first...a lighter Adventure with more power than the Dakar, the perfect bike!

    Except even the Dakar is too heavy. So I'm assuming the F800 will be heavier.

    This bike is dead to me.
  20. Raven

    Raven Lone Gunman

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    AMEN !!!! :beer