Broken inner clutch case and water pump with mystery floating pieces

Discussion in 'Dakar champion (950/990)' started by tksmith, Oct 18, 2019.

  1. tksmith

    tksmith Another GS Freak

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    Warning--- This thread contains very little riding. Sadly :muutt

    In a galaxy far far away, a mate rode down from the Sunny Coast to his mates place to watch Bathurst. Yes cars! His wife (my sister in law) puts on a fantastic day for my mate (brother from another mother) his boys and anyone else that wants to come along really. A feast of smallgoods and BBQ'd delights. Brilliant. I was sick of watching this from afar year after year, so this year I went down Friday Night and Came home Monday (took the day off).:clap

    So what about the riding you are probably thinking, well on Saturday we went down to Boambee and had a play on the beach at low tide. :lol3 Much fun was had, Kev the 950 was loving life. Sorry no video or photos, we were there for fun not footage:imaposer

    Anyhoo...... much crazy shenanigans were afoot and we had our fill of the sand soft and hard. So we went home, hosed the bikes off good. I noticed that Kev was low on water in the overflow bottle so topped him up and didn't give it a thought really, put them to bed and got on with....stuff :rofl

    Now for the subject of this story.

    On the way home on Monday (the race was great, much driving was watched etc etc) I looked down at the bottle at Woolgoolga (yes the inland roads were shut due to the fires so slabbed it home up the Hwy:hair) and it was empty agian :dirtdog. topped it up from my camel Back and continued.

    Just passed Grafton on the river before Ulmarra I looked down and it was empty again. Kev was running 1 bar hotter than normal (middle) but I thought 1 bars OK, maybe he boiled some out on the beach on Saturday (as 950's are prone to do if you sit idle too long talking shit between helmts) so again I ignored it......seeing a pattern developing here? :(

    As I hit the roadworks the temp went up another bar.....and then another...... and then was at 1 under boiling!!! I limped into Woodburn on max and pulled up at the Servo...Kev was VERY hot!!:p3rry Woddburn_1.jpg

    To be continued.......
    #1
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  2. tksmith

    tksmith Another GS Freak

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    ..... After pulling the cover off and lifting the radiator cap, I realised I was not getting home on Kev today. There was very little water in the radiator and as I poured the water in it erupted out preceded by that lovely milkshake :dirtdog

    There were bubbles and milkshake pouring out and it seemed what I pored in just disappeared, so I shut him off and decided that was it, f&^%ing head gasket!! :baldy

    RACQ here I come.

    So as it turned out, I had left my RACQ membership at Ultra since Mungeranie in 2016 :cromag....so I hit them up for a "drop me home" scenario and they said sure. No Problem....so I wandered over to the river bank and chilled under a tree in the cool breeze coming up off the river and waited for...
    Woodburn_2.jpg

    4 1/2 hours later Kev and I are safely back at home and RACQ footed the $1100 bill. Ultimate is well worth it if you are going on a trip. I was lucky I forgot to drop back to standard cover when I got back. That may have something to do with cleaning up an emu half way from Blinman to Yunta...but thats another story :deal

    More to come shortly....
    #2
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  3. tksmith

    tksmith Another GS Freak

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    So thats the back story...... almost, but I'll get to that later. Now for the reason for the post. Bangin' and clangin' in the shed.

    As per the Aussie 950/990 Owners Thread posts I've made about WTF could be wrong I went in to pull the water pump out and see if it was something simple like a failed seal (as they are an issue on these things). I wasn't confident because even though Kev has 148k on the clock, he was rebuilt just before I bought him at 115k by Dalby Moto and has, as you would expect, run like a new bike since I've owned him. "You don't know what you don't know" (one of my favourite anecdotes) so I though, follow the advice from the crew on the 950 thread and have a look. Particularly as I had my sons 990 off the road for 3 weeks with a simple cockup on my part as you can read here.

    So today I pulled all the orange bits off


    Orange bits off.JPG

    Took him outside and degreased and washed his carcas
    Cleaned.JPG
    Then settled in for a revisit to where I've been far too often with my sons 990 lately. Inside clutch cover.

    Once I had the outside clutch cover off I saw the tell tale sludge from a failed water pump seal OR a blown head gasket. I imagine they both leave the same mess. I was still not sure if I was up for a "heads off" or just a water pump rebuild. I was hopeful though. Any way, the inseide clutch cover had to come off to get to the water pump.

    Once that was off I headed straight for the water pump shaft to see if the seal was f*&^ed or not, I chose to leave the impeller in the outside case and take it off on the bench, I had to make an impellar holding tool anyway. That was just 2 holes in a shock preload spanner at 39mm ctrs and a couple of small bolts, easy. Pressed the impeller and shaft out and has a look

    Shaft Looks OK.JPG

    Looks OK to me, based on what others have posted when they had failed ones. Damn I thought, not looking good. Might have to do head gaskets yet. I thought I'd better just have a closer look at the case etc just to be thorough and saw what looked like some marks that may be evidence of the seal failing and leaving deposits on the inside of the cases

    Inside Trace.JPG

    I was a little more hopeful. So I continued on cleaning the case and looking for possible issues and then I saw this after I removed the milkshake sludge

    Cracked Case Outside 2.JPG

    FU^K!!:2cryWhat the hell happened there I thought. For a second I thought maybe I hit the impeller shaft a little hard when I pushed it out, but no way I hot it hard enough to do that!!???

    Then I remembered that on Saturday one time i was going through the line of rubbish that high tide leaves behind I heard a bang just like when the front throws up a rock into the bash plate. At the time I thought "Oh shit, must have been a bottle or rock or something???" and kept riding. I'd say thats when it happened. So I went back over the see if I could see anything in the motor that would give me a clue..

    Thats not suppoded to be there.JPG

    :yikes I saw that little piece of....??... whatever it is sitting just under the crank position sensor. I suspect its from somewhere up around the balance shaft, looks like a piece of a backlash gear or something, not very thick maybe 3mm but made from the same material as the gears, hardened cast steel.

    Looks like it made its way under the end of the balance shaft where the water pump is driven and got munched up in there causing the pump shaft to get screwed upwards and twist the bearings in the clutch cover case and cause that damage. Literally twisted the bearings out of the case until it fractured.

    Sooooooo...... that leaves me with what other damage has been done in there with that finding its way into its happy place under the crank position sensor?

    Anyone know of this happening to anyone? What part it may be off? I'll keep peeling back the layers until I find where its from and after that, what I need to do to make sure I fix whats f*&^de and button it all back up. Might be a compete rebuild :knary

    Here is what it looks like
    The Thing 1.JPG

    The Thing 2.JPG

    Attached Files:

    #3
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  4. PBee

    PBee ...---...

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    :lurk
    #4
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  5. ktmgeoff

    ktmgeoff Remember it's not a race!

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    Ouch. Maybe the lesser of evils that the bit fell down from on high rather than munching on high speed stuff. And I've no idea what it is, but obviously it's not vital to keep the bike running.
    #5
  6. Whodatschrome

    Whodatschrome Long timer

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  7. braaap!

    braaap! Long timer Supporter

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    Black Cat, Chinaman, Ladder & Murphy!

    Looks like you’ve struck gold in the bad karma stakes... Whilst it’s all fixable it’s a PITA!
    Good luck on the repairs, it’ll be worth it (as you already know)
    Damn!
    #7
  8. tksmith

    tksmith Another GS Freak

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  9. tksmith

    tksmith Another GS Freak

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    Yes braaap!, my mate just asked should I wheel the old 1100GS out and spend the cash there but I said to him, "I really like the 950" which is code for, "I am getting too old to really enjoy the 950 much longer, there is plenty of time to settle back on to the GS " :jack
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  10. Whodatschrome

    Whodatschrome Long timer

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    Both bearings have only one seal each. The seal on one of the bearing seals faces the impeller, and the other seal on the other bearing faces the inside of the engine. A total of 3 seals are used on the water pump shaft. It’s also possible that I’m somehow looking at your pictures wrong.
    3E6F3A96-C68F-4AC5-80A0-5B6D48DA0595.jpeg
    #10
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  11. tksmith

    tksmith Another GS Freak

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    I see what your saying now. The bearing on the internal side on my bike appears to be an open bearing?? I'm assuming that the 'seals' on sealed bearings are not water tight pressure resistant seals. Just like wheel bearings, the seal is to trap lubricant against the moving parts, not to resist the ingress or egress of water or oil under pressure. I'm assuming that the seal that sits directly behind the impeller is the only 'real' seal??

    But I'm no mechanic. Maybe that black trace that appears on the inside of the case below that bearing is the remnants of it being destroyed after whatever cracked the case happened?:lobby
    #11
  12. braaap!

    braaap! Long timer Supporter

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  13. Whodatschrome

    Whodatschrome Long timer

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    Yes, it looks to be an open bearing. What is probably going on is that the last person to rebuild the pump installed the bearing backwards. I'm going to guess that both of the half sealed bearings are facing the same direction (towards the water pump propeller). Will it be fine like that?...probably for a little while, but for sure it's incorrect.
    #13
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  14. braaap!

    braaap! Long timer Supporter

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    Looking outside in... You can see the ball race. I doubt that the black seal material has been eroded on yours as the bearing itself looks way to clean.
    Maybe the mech at Dalby fcuked up?
    ktm_waterpump_34.jpg
    #14
  15. rider911

    rider911 Shortcut Navigator

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    No one fucked up!

    Those bearing seals are not meant to do anything except keep debris out of the rollers. They do not seal fluids. On a factory greased bearing they keep the grease in. ie wheel bearings - and obviously those seals dont keep the water out.

    The mechanic would have purposely flicked the seal out to allow more oil to splash into the bearing. You can argue about whether its necessary or not but its not making any difference at all to whether the water-pump seal seals coolant or not.
    I take the seals out for the reason of providing more lube to the inboard lip of the water-pump seal which IMO can run a little dry.
    #15
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  16. tksmith

    tksmith Another GS Freak

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    Just browsing the PDF Service Manual and noticed this (see locating dowel/pin hole in the gear)
    Part_1.JPG
    There are what seems like half of a hole in the "thing" at either end, seems to be cast or machined so might make it easier to identify

    The Thing 1 detail.JPG
    #16
  17. braaap!

    braaap! Long timer Supporter

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    Saying that 'the mechanic would have purposely flicked the seals out'... is simply conjecture. Whilst not expressly stated in the service manual (P68) the bearing installation orientation is pretty clear.
    #17
  18. tksmith

    tksmith Another GS Freak

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    That sounds correct to me rider911. Those seals need all the help they can get as far as oil supply. Not a big issue IMHO.
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  19. tksmith

    tksmith Another GS Freak

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    I have been poring over the service manual and Pyndon's brilliant rebuild thread here and I am at a loss to:

    1. Identify what the "thing" could be.
    2. Explain how anything from anywhere els in the engine (other than in the outer clutch cover case area) could migrate to that side?
    So that leaves me with the problem of what it is and where it came from. I can see whiteness marks on the right engine case AND the outer clutch case where this "thing" has been dragged by the crank pinion around from the balancer shaft drive gear around to the crank position sensor.

    I can't get to the shed to start tearing things out but everything on this side of the motor is pretty visible and I cant see anything missing/broken????
    #19
  20. Whodatschrome

    Whodatschrome Long timer

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    You should move the thread over to somewhere where you'll get more international attention...https://advrider.com/f/forums/dakar-champion-950-990.34/ It might help you figure out quicker what the broken bits are.
    #20