Broken inner clutch case and water pump with mystery floating pieces

Discussion in 'Dakar champion (950/990)' started by tksmith, Oct 18, 2019.

  1. tksmith

    tksmith Another GS Freak

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    uk_mouse I think that the balance shaft and the crank had a chew on the piece as it went through. I'm concerned that the right inner main case half might have been stressed like the clutch outer case and I will have to look at that carefully. Have to put a dial indicator on the end of the balance shaft and see if its out of line!!! Hope not. But yes those water pump bearings have been twisted in the case to cause that damage so I'm not hopeful.

    If it is a piece of the flat plates in the outer clutch basket then I'm up for $1k there, another $350 for the outer clutch case plus misc bearings, gaskets, O-Rings etc. Looking at $1500 already. If I have to do balance shaft bearings too then I'm getting close to $2k :hair
    #41
  2. uk_mouse

    uk_mouse Aquatic adventurer

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    Where are you? I have various bits of engine in boxes but I'm in the UK so shipping might be expensive. Probably worth seeing what you can find on eBay before buying new.
    #42
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  3. DirtyADV

    DirtyADV Long timer

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    Was not what I was thinking but that sure looks like it could be culprit there.

    Minimal disassembly to remove clutch basket is rotating engine so basket lines up with the big opening in the trigger sprocket and removing bearing with a couple of magnets.

    Gives you enough clearence to pull it out.




    /Johan
    #43
  4. tksmith

    tksmith Another GS Freak

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    Yes guys, Been in there on my sons 990 quite a bit. Don't ask!!.

    My only concern is if there is damage to the inner engine case and/or the balance shaft/bearing due to that piece goign through the Crank pinion/Balance shaft gears!!!

    If thats OK and I only need Outer Hub and outer clutch case then 2nd hand parts will be sought.

    uk_mouse I'm in Australia so postage might be a bit but what bits do you have?
    #44
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  5. tksmith

    tksmith Another GS Freak

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    I'm on to a local 55,000km good motor for $1500 so ATM thats my plan B
    #45
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  6. uk_mouse

    uk_mouse Aquatic adventurer

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    I'd have to look through my box of bits, pretty sure i have a clutch cover, i may have a basket. But to be honest once you add up the cost of parts and gaskets etc, and the possibility of unseen damage, that engine looks attractive.
    #46
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  7. tksmith

    tksmith Another GS Freak

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    Well, heading for the shed. Should know whats what in an hour or so.
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  8. tksmith

    tksmith Another GS Freak

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    So the verdict is:
    IMG_0776.JPG


    Rear (outer ) cush drive plate fractured as suspected.

    Not sure what came first, The chicken or the Egg, but the rivets are WAY loose in the basket. As you can see in the video I'll post after I upload it to YouTube.

    So it looks like $1500 of parts or that motor now. In another video I'll also post I have a LOT of endfloat in my Oil Pump drive so I'm note sure if thats factory or I have another issue in there:2cry

    I can't see much evidence of there being metal on metal contact between the outer basket and the cases or other parts but the amount of play in the rivets in the basket is scary !!! I'd say it was not far off letting go and causing massive damage.

    more to come soon.....
    #48
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  9. tksmith

    tksmith Another GS Freak

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    Before undoing the counter shaft nut:


    What it looked like after removal:
    #49
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  10. getagripgreg

    getagripgreg Been here awhile

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    Wow, what a weird failure.

    The clutch does normally have a shocking amount of motion on that needle bearing, but yeah, not that much.

    I was in my motor that deep 8 years ago now, so I don't remember what the oil pump felt like. But I can guarantee that the pump gears don't have that kind of end-float. It wouldn't make pressure, ever. So the freeplay must be in the drive, which I recall as a hardened steel cross pin in a plastic gear. Gear pumps have less than .002" end clearance to work. What you see might be normal drive slop.

    I'm gonna vote to swap motors. The cost of that clutch is equal to a used motor. I mean, you could fix it, and maybe you could find just a used clutch to save $1000. But the questions about what else was damaged are serious. That broken casting by the water pump is ominous.

    Good luck! :dunno
    #50
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  11. 1coolbanana

    1coolbanana Long timer

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    That sucks
    If you do look for a used clutch, look for a later model, its a much better setup.
    I did see one on Gumtree a while ago for only a couple hundred bucks.
    Pretty sure all 9XX clutches are interchangeable.

    The other motor does sound like a good option if its a good one.
    #51
  12. zimtim

    zimtim Adventurer

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    Last year the big end on my engine went.
    I looked at striping it and doing a full rebuild by the time I added up all the parts, gaskets, special tools etc it soon became apparent that a used engine was a much cheaper option, also a much quicker option to me back on the road.
    I still have the old engine I might rebuild it but it will be a slow process over a few years and more as learning tool.

    The play you are getting is too me very excessive.
    Good luck
    #52
  13. tksmith

    tksmith Another GS Freak

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    Well yes guys, I like the idea of the 2nd hand motor for the supply of parts but if this clutch basket issue is 'common' then I'd probably be bette of going for the newer basket etc.

    My problem is that this motor has been rebuilt at 113,000km by a very good workshop over here and has been really rebuilt. It had $7600 spent on it. They replace shift forks and rollers, both timing chains, balance shaft, both pistons (rings etc of course), all the bearings and seals, water pump bearings and seals all with the later/latest (as at 2014) parts so its a REALLY good motor and if I put a stock 2003 motor in it I'd be up for more money sooner than with the motor thats in it. It's only done 30,00km since that rebuild so it's actually 'newer' too.

    I'm hoping that someone may have some input on the rivets in that outer basket because if its common (i have never heard of it) i'll go for a later unit or CJ Designs billet one.

    However the oil pump will push th enew parts price up to nearly $2K so :hmmmmm
    #53
  14. Cruz

    Cruz Lost but laughing.

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    TK, have you spoken with the engine rebuilder about your engine and what you have found?
    #54
  15. 1coolbanana

    1coolbanana Long timer

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    I really dont think its a common problem at all.
    I believe CJ's have not made them in a long time now.
    A used later model clutch basket would be a good step.
    I dont think your pump has a problem as its upstream of the strainer at the bottom.

    I had the oil pump gear disintegrate and no metal got into the pump but lots was at the strainer.
    That was at 14000 km and bike now has 60,000 km

    [​IMG]
    #55
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  16. Rharr

    Rharr Been here awhile

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    Can you just replace the back plate? Grid the rivets off and see how bad the basket is? A old Suzuki gs I have you do that cause the oem is weak. I know you can use clutch plates from a bunch of different bikes on the 9x0, maybe a clutch basket from one of those bikes would work? Or maybe making a frankstien from a bunch of stuff?

    Aperacing use to make HD back plates for the Suzuki maybe they have a plate that could work on the KTM.

    Hinson also makes baskets maybe send them yours to see if they got something that works.
    #56
  17. mountaincadre

    mountaincadre Long timer

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    I've got a spare but I'm in Europe.
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  18. tksmith

    tksmith Another GS Freak

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    The more I think about it the more I see a trail of failures leading up to the clutch and water pump. The way I see it may have gone is:

    1. Needle roller fails in Oil Pump specifically the Lift Pump inside the main cases/gearbox
    2. New free play in Oil Pump shaft allows the drive gear to float far enough to start connecting with the spring recesses in the clutch basket cush plate.
    3. 1 piece of the clutch cush plate breaks off and finds its way up through the Basket gear Crank gear and stresses out the basket/rivets
    4. The same piece finds its way up through the Crank gear/Balance shaft gear causing the water pump bearing/case damage
    5. Overheating brings it al to a halt and here we are???
    Have to pull the oil pump out to be sure but if its the internal side of the pump thats got the damage I have to split the cases to get in there. 2nd hand motor is looking better all the time if I get to that point.
    #58
  19. tksmith

    tksmith Another GS Freak

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    #59
  20. 1coolbanana

    1coolbanana Long timer

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    And mine here reported in 2014

    http://www.ozadventurerider.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=75&t=3009&start=127

    This had nothing to do with the oil pump shaft.
    It was due to cost cutting with a crappy gear after about 2009.
    I stripped mine, and there was no issue with the pump.
    Nor was there any damage to the clutch.
    The new supplied part is actually a reverted early model pump gear same as my previous 950.
    #60