Broken inner clutch case and water pump with mystery floating pieces

Discussion in 'Dakar champion (950/990)' started by tksmith, Oct 18, 2019.

  1. tksmith

    tksmith Another GS Freak

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2007
    Oddometer:
    1,188
    Location:
    Peachester State Forest..Usually :-D
    Do you remember if the oil pump shaft had that much movement in it?
    #61
  2. 1coolbanana

    1coolbanana Long timer

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2009
    Oddometer:
    5,731
    Location:
    NW Sydney, Australia
    It did have axial end float but I cant remember how much, it didnt really concern me is the assembly is captive when all together.
    If you look at the schematic, you can see the rotor drive dowel sits on a slot going through the pump rotor and it will have a fair amount of float.
    There should also be thrust washers either side of the gear which should take up some clearance. Were they both there?
    #62
    braaap! likes this.
  3. tksmith

    tksmith Another GS Freak

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2007
    Oddometer:
    1,188
    Location:
    Peachester State Forest..Usually :-D
    Have not pulled the pump out yet. I suspect that there should not be as much as I'm seeing since it would allow the drive gear to come out and contact the back of the clutch basket, which I think is what has happened and is at the root of all that has happened. I may get over there tonight
    #63
    braaap! likes this.
  4. 1coolbanana

    1coolbanana Long timer

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2009
    Oddometer:
    5,731
    Location:
    NW Sydney, Australia
    I really dont think your pump is the root cause.
    Clutch bearing/rivets, amount of play etc is my thoughts.

    Is there any damage on the pump gear or shaft?
    That sort of impact, enough to break a piece off the clutch, would destroy the pump gear and shaft IMHO.
    #64
  5. tksmith

    tksmith Another GS Freak

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2007
    Oddometer:
    1,188
    Location:
    Peachester State Forest..Usually :-D

    I know what you mean. There is witness marks on the pump drive gear, Ill post later. I cant understand how the roll pin that goes through the shaft in the inner/suction pump section could break. Thats the only way I can see the shaft will com eout that far as its all I can see that locates the shaft laterally. That one and the one on the outside/pressure side of the pump?
    #65
  6. tksmith

    tksmith Another GS Freak

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2007
    Oddometer:
    1,188
    Location:
    Peachester State Forest..Usually :-D
    IMG_0781.JPG IMG_0783.JPG OK, finally got over there and pulled the drive gear and outer cover of the oil pump. According to my reckoning, the service manual and fiche both indicate that:
    • There is 1 needle roller on the inside of the cases, it drives the internal suction pump internals
    • There are two outside; 1 engages the drive gear, 2 drives the outside high pressure pump internals
    • The needle roller either side of the case would locate the shaft along its axis
    IMG_0781.JPG
    Based on that the needle rollers either side of the case would stop this drive gear contacting the back of the clutch.

    They would also have to keep the two gears meshed nicely.
    Mine clearly has enough end float to allow the drive gear to contact the clutch basket AND prevent those gears from meshing.
    IMG_0783.JPG
    So absent some other part not obvious in the manual and fiche, I can only assume that the internal needle roller is either broken or has in some way got enough wear beside it in the cases that it can move that far.

    Living with ADSL here so uploading video takes an age. Post the vid shortly
    #66
  7. tinwelp

    tinwelp Professional Idiot

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Oddometer:
    695
    Location:
    Deepest Southern France
    Agreed, although the use of the term 'needle roller' by the KTM references is a little confusing! I'm not sure how such damage could happen, but I think the only way you're going to know for sure is strip the oil pump(s).

    It's a little sad to think it's cheaper to throw this all away and buy a new motor rather than repairing your existing one. Unfortunately that's how the cookie crumbles these days...

    Cheers... Paul
    #67
  8. tksmith

    tksmith Another GS Freak

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2007
    Oddometer:
    1,188
    Location:
    Peachester State Forest..Usually :-D
    Video of the situation



    That cant be right?
    #68
  9. 1coolbanana

    1coolbanana Long timer

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2009
    Oddometer:
    5,731
    Location:
    NW Sydney, Australia
    Oh well, theres go my theory.
    Does the shaft and rotors come out from that side?
    #69
  10. MCCOYBOY

    MCCOYBOY Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2012
    Oddometer:
    298
    Location:
    Swanton, MD
    The inner oil pump rotor on the supply pump is installed incorrectly if I'm seeing things correctly in your video. The roll pin goes in the shaft first and then the inner rotor slides down the oil pump shaft and OVER the roll pin. I'll get you some pictures of the proper assembly of the oil pump when I get back to the shop. If this is the case, that would mean this was the results of an improperly assembled oil pump during the last rebuild.

    Attached Files:

    #70
    1coolbanana likes this.
  11. 1coolbanana

    1coolbanana Long timer

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2009
    Oddometer:
    5,731
    Location:
    NW Sydney, Australia
    @MCCOYBOY I think youre onto something there :thumb
    The rotor is facing the wrong way with the open end of the slot facing out!

    Heres a bigger image

    [​IMG]
    #71
  12. tksmith

    tksmith Another GS Freak

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2007
    Oddometer:
    1,188
    Location:
    Peachester State Forest..Usually :-D

    Bloody hell you two, you have cracked it! That is ass about face isn't it. What that says to me is that the axial float of that shaft is controlled by the two needle rollers on the outside!! The needle roller in the drive gear (outside) housing and the one in the pressure rotor!! NOT the one either side of the engine cases.

    In that theory, if I assemble the pump correctly it will be OK and I don't have to split the cases?
    #72
  13. tksmith

    tksmith Another GS Freak

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2007
    Oddometer:
    1,188
    Location:
    Peachester State Forest..Usually :-D
    The problem I have now is trying to get the needle roller inside that rotor out so I can assemble it correctly. It won't come out with just finger pressure. Might have to talk to it with something else :fpalm
    #73
  14. 1coolbanana

    1coolbanana Long timer

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2009
    Oddometer:
    5,731
    Location:
    NW Sydney, Australia
    Found this

    [​IMG]
    #74
    MCCOYBOY likes this.
  15. 1coolbanana

    1coolbanana Long timer

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2009
    Oddometer:
    5,731
    Location:
    NW Sydney, Australia
  16. tksmith

    tksmith Another GS Freak

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2007
    Oddometer:
    1,188
    Location:
    Peachester State Forest..Usually :-D
    Yes. So the thing I need to establish is CAN you assemble the oil pump the way mine is without having the cases split?

    I will probably have to cut the pressure side internal rotor OR the needle roller to get it apart. The needle roller that drives that rotor will not come out far enough to slide it out nicely.

    that’s what makes me believe it had to be assembled that way when the cases were open. That indicates to anyone who has read the thread thoroughly who seems to have done it. Disappointed. I will try get confirmation of that fact from KTM before I can conclude that but stil. Someone done f@&$ed up!!
    #76
    MCCOYBOY likes this.
  17. 1coolbanana

    1coolbanana Long timer

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2009
    Oddometer:
    5,731
    Location:
    NW Sydney, Australia
    What stops you pulling the whole lot out?
    #77
  18. MCCOYBOY

    MCCOYBOY Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2012
    Oddometer:
    298
    Location:
    Swanton, MD
    So, lucky for you I have a spare bottom end at my shop from a recently parted out 950. That said I pulled the oil pump cover off and tried to assemble the oil pump the way yours was installed during your last rebuild. Short answer is there's NO WAY it can be done without splitting the cases. I had the guy I work with pull up on the shaft with all he had while I tried to install the needle roller and it wasn't happening. The picture shows how far I was able to get it installed during our experiment.

    Attached Files:

    #78
    Dusty and 1coolbanana like this.
  19. MCCOYBOY

    MCCOYBOY Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2012
    Oddometer:
    298
    Location:
    Swanton, MD
    The suction pump needle roller stops the shaft from pulling all the way out of the right side case.
    #79
    tksmith and 1coolbanana like this.
  20. 1coolbanana

    1coolbanana Long timer

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2009
    Oddometer:
    5,731
    Location:
    NW Sydney, Australia
    Bugger :(
    #80