Broken inner clutch case and water pump with mystery floating pieces

Discussion in 'Dakar champion (950/990)' started by tksmith, Oct 18, 2019.

  1. tksmith

    tksmith Another GS Freak

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2007
    Oddometer:
    1,188
    Location:
    Peachester State Forest..Usually :-D

    Yes MCCOYBOY that’s my take on it too. Thanks heaps for looking at that for me mate. I really appreciate it.

    I just wanted to know, I have no plans on chasing anyone up on it. Shit happens.


    My only issue now is

    • Is the internal suction pump rotor on wrong??
    • If so, what does that mean? Do I need to spli the cases to find out
    • if it is do I need to fix it IE split the cases??
    #81
  2. tksmith

    tksmith Another GS Freak

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2007
    Oddometer:
    1,188
    Location:
    Peachester State Forest..Usually :-D
    After thinking about it, I should be able to deduce that IF I knew what the maximum (IE while being pulled outward while measuring) distance the shaft protrudes out from the engine case on a correctly assembled motor (MCCOYBOY?? :D)

    My logic is that the distance that the drive shaft protrudes from the cases for suction pump rotor on correctly vs incorrectly will vary by the difference between the thickness of the rotor minus the groove depth in the rotor??
    #82
    MCCOYBOY likes this.
  3. MCCOYBOY

    MCCOYBOY Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2012
    Oddometer:
    294
    Location:
    Swanton, MD
    Do you have a picture of the needle roller's position in the inner rotor with the oil pump shaft pulled all the way out? If it comes out just to the point where you believe you could get the needle roller out but in fact can't then the inner suction pump would have to be installed correctly. If it was installed backwards like your pressure pump was then I'm pretty sure there'd be no way of getting the pin in the pressure pump side.

    You can see in the picture of the suction pump that the rotors are built the same with only one side being machined out for the needle roller. Hope I'm making sense.

    Attached Files:

    #83
  4. MCCOYBOY

    MCCOYBOY Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2012
    Oddometer:
    294
    Location:
    Swanton, MD
    Lol.... I was typing my reply when you submitted yours. I'll get that measurement for you in the morning.
    #84
  5. tksmith

    tksmith Another GS Freak

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2007
    Oddometer:
    1,188
    Location:
    Peachester State Forest..Usually :-D
    Well actually MCCOWBOY BAsed on what you said I think its OK. I have the same scenario as you when you put your pressure rotor in backwards. It looks like the needle roller should come out but not quite enough room, therefore the 3-5 mm difference that the internal rotor would make is obvious. My internal rotor looks to be in correctly. :clap

    I'll do that overall measurement tonight. However I did measure the throw my shaft has as is. Its nearly exactly 8mm. So in other words with my shaft pulled right out compared to pushed right in, 8mm
    #85
    MCCOYBOY likes this.
  6. tksmith

    tksmith Another GS Freak

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2007
    Oddometer:
    1,188
    Location:
    Peachester State Forest..Usually :-D
    Shaft end to pressure rotor face, fully extended out = 32mm
    #86
    MCCOYBOY likes this.
  7. tinwelp

    tinwelp Professional Idiot

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Oddometer:
    694
    Location:
    Deepest Southern France
    Interesting and very obvious once you posted the video. I'm surprised at the incompetence of whomever assembled your engine... but shit like this does happen.

    To recover, push the roll-pin (needle roller) out as far as it will go, then cut it with a tiny abrasive wheel. With care you should be able to do this without touching the inner rotor or the shaft. Once cut, and with the remains of the pin pushed back inside its hole, the inner rotor will slide off the shaft. Clean up (thoroughly), replace the roll-pin and reassemble the pump. No case splitting needed.

    If the inner pump was also assembled incorrectly, the shaft wouldn't be able to move so far, so I believe that is OK.

    Cheers... Paul
    #87
    mountaincadre and 1coolbanana like this.
  8. tksmith

    tksmith Another GS Freak

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2007
    Oddometer:
    1,188
    Location:
    Peachester State Forest..Usually :-D


    Thanks tinwelp, you gotta just roll with the punches don't you, shit does happen. Anyway. I came to much the same conclusion with the roll pin. Seal her up good around the rotor housing out. Some deft Dremin Fu and I hope my hand is steady :2guns. I believe the play in the pin inside the rotor will allow access to snick each end so the remainder is shorter than the shaft diameter.


    Watch this space :knary
    #88
  9. uk_mouse

    uk_mouse Aquatic adventurer

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2006
    Oddometer:
    1,901
    Location:
    UK
    I've got a spit 990 engine so if you want photos or measurements of the inner parts let me know - if your engine was split the rotor on the inside could be on wrong as well? I can't get to it until Monday though, and the manual has pretty good photos of how it should be.
    #89
  10. MCCOYBOY

    MCCOYBOY Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2012
    Oddometer:
    294
    Location:
    Swanton, MD
    That's exactly what it measured for me.

    Attached Files:

    #90
    1coolbanana and mountaincadre like this.
  11. tksmith

    tksmith Another GS Freak

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2007
    Oddometer:
    1,188
    Location:
    Peachester State Forest..Usually :-D
    Well guys, that does sit for me, I'm happy to run that pump as is, albeit put back together correctly :-) . Looks like a basket/case/pump needle roller/water pump seal and bearings and associated gasket, seals, o-rings will do it. I have the very generous offer of a donor basket so I might get out of this for less than $1k AUD.
    #91
  12. rattis

    rattis Long timer

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2010
    Oddometer:
    3,916
    Location:
    East of the seas of Kattegat
    It's a nuisance when you fuck up but when you have to pay someone to fuck up....
    Good luck with the reassembly.
    #92
    1coolbanana and MCCOYBOY like this.
  13. tksmith

    tksmith Another GS Freak

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2007
    Oddometer:
    1,188
    Location:
    Peachester State Forest..Usually :-D
    Thanks rattis

    Collecting bits and pieces ATM.
    #93
  14. MCCOYBOY

    MCCOYBOY Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2012
    Oddometer:
    294
    Location:
    Swanton, MD
    You find a source for a clutch basket? I have a 2005 engine I'm parting out with a solid clutch assembly.....
    #94
  15. tksmith

    tksmith Another GS Freak

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2007
    Oddometer:
    1,188
    Location:
    Peachester State Forest..Usually :-D
    I'm talking with a guy in Scotland who has one that I only have to pay postage on. If that pans out I'm good thanks MCCOWBY. Also a second hand engine on standby too. Just busted for cash ATM so in a holding pattern :dirtdog
    #95
  16. tksmith

    tksmith Another GS Freak

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2007
    Oddometer:
    1,188
    Location:
    Peachester State Forest..Usually :-D
    Well I got my dremel foo on today and the pump internals have been liberated

    54B589C7-FA80-4189-B2A1-74734F6DDAFA.jpeg

    25835398-617F-4B7C-8994-3656E5ED961E.jpeg

    Yahoo. I owe a big shout out to Andrew. Legend mate. Now to clean her up and assemble.
    #96
  17. tksmith

    tksmith Another GS Freak

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2007
    Oddometer:
    1,188
    Location:
    Peachester State Forest..Usually :-D
    It was not as difficult as I was expecting. Just held the roller with a small pair of vice grips, couldn't get the cutting disk on the dremel close enough at a good angle so I used the large (approx 1") grinding head and carefully ground the 1/2 facing out, down to close to the shaft. Rotated the pin and did the other side, rinse and repeat until the roller was short enough to sit inside the shaft diameter and out she came!!

    Thanks to mountaincadre for so generously making his un used basket, case and oil pump drive gear available for nothing but postage!! Just humbling to be on the receiving end of such generosity. Legend mate, thanks!

    That has save me 1000's.

    Have the granddaughter over this weekend so no shed time until Wed but I hope to button it up, fill it with fluids and fire a shot through it. I have been very careful to keep the filings and shit from getting in anywhere with a couple of meters of masking tape etc but I'll just put some cheap shit oil in it and after its been for a quick blat down the street and back, I'll drop it out and change the filter again with some fresh oil and see how it looks after a hundred K's or so. Rinse and repeat.
    #97