Car Tires Really

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by kneeslider, Oct 31, 2013.

  1. Cat0020

    Cat0020 El cheapo

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    Picked me up another Burgman 650.. 07 model, $1.4k, 8k miles on odometer, sat outdoors for couple of years.. needed battery/tires/fluids/filters/brake pads replacement..

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    Of course, gone darkside for rear tire.

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    Clampett likes this.
  2. bandito2

    bandito2 Been here awhile

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    The bit about insurance; It has come up several times before in different threads and even on different forums.
    Many think and behave as if the subject has never come up before. Not all readers/riders have seen about it in
    the various venues. No need to be so critical of dissenters when it comes to the debate about insurance and
    liabilities, as maybe they just are not as informed as some (but still not all) darksiders and so revert to mere
    speculation. Which is very often just human nature at work as a means to fill voids intellectually. The brain likes
    to have an understanding of what it is processing... even if it has to invent some for itself. Hard to fault folks for
    something that happens naturally and seemingly is beyond their ability to consciously control. Many folks have
    never been taught critical thinking skills so they just don't know to really think about what it is they are thinking.
    That is part of the beauty of some of these debates; it offers an opportunity to help clarify and inform.

    I am supportive of the darkside concept and practice and did a posting here:
    http://mcdarksiders.forumotion.com/...s-the-darkside-according-to-bandito2-part-1-2

    The subject of insurance is brought up there. Briefly; I called several insurance companies to get as much info
    about their standing on the issue of car tire use on motorcycles/scooters. Some did not respond, some were
    non-committal in their responses; only AAA of Michigan stated outright that they would not cover a claim where
    a car tire was used. Yet, as I recall, even this response had a bit of ambiguity about whether it still might make a
    difference if the use of the car tire actually had a substantial impact on an incident or not.

    Manufacturers often are more clear about what may or may not be done to their bikes warranty wise. But it is
    still a bit fuzzy in places legally and insurance wise between what may or may not be allowed or covered. But
    the thing is that here in the US, generally speaking, things are presumed to be legal and allowed unless and
    until there is law prohibiting it. So far in the US, the use of a car tire on a motorcycle/scooter that is used on public
    roads is not prohibited from use on those public roads so long as the tires in question are D.O.T. approved and are
    not for off road use only. So far it seems that most insurance companies would need to make that determination
    after the fact and in all honesty may not be favorable if it seemed possible or likely that a car tire on the bike may
    have indeed been an influencing factor on the outcome of an incident/accident as it would be for any modification
    that may come into question. So it still seems some things are not exactly black and white and will always be subject
    to scrutiny and decision making. So in the mean time, folks will do whatever they are comfortable with and roll the
    dice so to speak. Hard to say with conviction that either side of the debate is more right or wrong on this aspect of
    car tire use until more absolute legal distinctions are made. And in my view I kind of hope they do not. As I have
    said before; there is already too much intrusion into the activities of the citizenry by the overbearing nature of the
    US government.

    So the debate about insurance as things are now here in the US is, largely an exercise in futility on both sides of
    the darkside debate since such things are still not so clear cut.

    Even so, I still may have just wasted time airing this view since probably in a page or less, another reader will not
    have read enough of this thread to see that even they may be wasting their time ranting about it.

    ... done for now.
    GETTHUMPER2 and WDG like this.
  3. FredBGG

    FredBGG Long timer

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    Not as simple as that.

    Unlike most parts on cars and bikes tires are very specifically labeled.
    Tires are serialized including manufacturer information and the plant where they were made and when they were made.
    There is also other code and it is vehicle type specific too.

    M/C denotes that the tire is for a motorcycle. This is is required by the DOT.

    This is from Bridgstone's website

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    If your running a tire that does not have the M/C label you are in limbo with the insurance.

    Try this... get your insurance underwriting department to send you a letter stating that they will cover you if you are running a non motorcycle tire.
    Not word of mouth and not some statement from who sold you the insurance. You need it from the underwriting department and signed.

    Insurance adjusters may not look at all the details on a small claim, but if the claim is significant you can rest assured that the insurance will look at EVERYTHING.
    On top of that if you have a civil case filed against you you can rest assured that the other parties Lawyer will look at everything.

    Ontop of this every single motorcycle and tire company strongly recommend against using car tires on motorcycles.

    Good f@#king luck if a jury is involved.
  4. Kubla

    Kubla Long timer

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    Of course they do, more profit in selling get you bike tires that cost twice as much as car tires yet only last a quarter as long, no one has addressed the issue of getting a rim made for your bike with a car tire bead, I am surprised that no one makes one for a golding yet
    Jarlaxle likes this.
  5. markk53

    markk53 jack of all trades...

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    And a bit more fricking stupidity will occur...

    No one is going to change their minds, nothing will be accomplished... :fpalm
  6. cycleman2

    cycleman2 Long timer

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    Yep sounds about right.
  7. bandito2

    bandito2 Been here awhile

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    Yes, simple as that. We are talking car tire use on bikes, not about using bike tires on a car; a significant difference there. Car and truck
    manufacturers require specific type tires when new and commercial operations require certain types of tires on their vehicles and most if
    not all states have many regulations on tires, type and use for commercial operations and vehicles of certain gross weight. Manufacturers
    of tires and rims must meet requirements, but NOWHERE is it cited that certain type tires & rims MUST be used on motorcycles outside of
    the domain of bike manufacturers or with other tire types being excluded and/or restricted from use on motorcycles. However, there might be
    some states that have regulations that address that. But Michigan does not specify that only motorcycle tires must be used on motorcycles;
    only that certain tires may NOT be used per MI Act 32 of 2016 Chapter 1, part 257. Section 710 h(iv) Has a marking "not for highway use",
    "for racing purposes only", "for farm use only", or "unsafe for highway use" Custom built or modified bikes and equipment would not be at
    all possible if forced to follow Federal regs like those put on manufacturers. This is where the states step in to define regs not specifically
    defined and enforced by the Feds to suit their ideas of what is safe and proper.


    As I said before; these are requirements for the manufacturers, not the end user. If you disagree with this, then look up Title 49 CFR 571 Federal
    Motor Vehicle Safety Standards and tell me where it specifies otherwise.


    You see I already did this... Not with just any local agents, but rather the insurance corporate.


    And this is why I recommended in that piece I wrote for people to ask their insurance about effects, if any on coverage regarding non-motorcycle tire use on their bikes.
    (car tire use specifically)

    And manufacturers also recommend against using other non-standard equipment and accessories like trailers for example. But as you say, it is only a recommendation
    regardless of its strength... they may void warranties, but certainly may not be illegal or restricted.

    With a jury It would be no different than if any other manufacturer non-recommended equipment was involved. Like tall windshields, side cars, trailers, custom rims, etc.
    There would seem to be a burden of proof of inherent danger posed by such things. Why should car tires be considered any more special in that regard?
    Jarlaxle likes this.
  8. FredBGG

    FredBGG Long timer

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    Well I spoke directly to a AAA underwriter and he said the only way he would cover a motorcycle with a car tire on it is as a custom vehicle...... so good luck on that one.
    A side car motorcycle has to be insured as a custom vehicle.
  9. klaviator

    klaviator Long timer Supporter

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    So, have you checked with your insurance company to see if they would cover your bike with your surfboard attached? Suppose you hit someone else and they decided to sue you. Do you think that maybe the opposing lawyer might try to use that against you?

    The fact that out idiotic legal system might use something against you does not make it unsafe. It is however something to be considered.
  10. markk53

    markk53 jack of all trades...

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    Fred... tag, you're it!
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  11. Strong Bad

    Strong Bad Former World's Foremost Authority Supporter

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    So then, we've gone from your fucked if you run a car tire because the insurance company will never accept it, to your not fucked at all, you just need to call it a custom bike and the insurance covers it?

    Bull shit. My insurance carrier considers my sidecar to be an expensive accessory. I only add the value of the sidecar itself to the total value of the bike it's attached to. It is the same as putting a camper shell on a pickup.
    Jarlaxle and dustin2 like this.
  12. FredBGG

    FredBGG Long timer

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    One little difference. The entire motorcycle industry is not opposed to carrying things on a motorcycle, they however warn against the use of car tires.
    BMW and Ducati even presented certain models of bikes with surfboard carriers on them. You won't find a motorcycle company showing off a motorcycle in their showroom with
    car tires on then.

    Also I went to the DMV and got an "all clear" from them for how I carry my load and it is 100% to vehicle code.

    Sure a Lawyer could try to use my carrying of a surfboard, but he would have a big problem because California Vehicle code would confirm that it's perfectly legal AND TO CODE.

    But Klaviator.... what is it about my surfboard that gets you all upset.... got something against surfers?
  13. gravityisnotmyfriend

    gravityisnotmyfriend Long timer

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    The big difference is that people that think carrying a surf board on a bike is a bad idea - simply do not carry a surf board on a bike.

    They don't type thousands of words citing everything from insurance issues, legal issues, endangering everyone else on the road, and potentially making their mothers sad when they die in a fiery surf board induced explosion.

    We get it Fred. You don't approve of car tires. No one cares.
    Jarlaxle, Jud, dustin2 and 1 other person like this.
  14. klaviator

    klaviator Long timer Supporter

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    I have nothing against your surfboard. I'm all for using two wheels to do other, non riding things. I do have an issue with out legal system which I find idiotic when it comes to liability.

    As for the real issue here, car tires, I don't really have a dog in this fight since I don't run CTs on any of my bikes. I just have looked at both sides of the issue, have ridden with a number of riders using CTs and examined all the stuff posted by both sides. What I have seen is this.

    On the pro CT side there are a bunch of riders using CTs without any of the "safety" problems the anti CT faction seems obsessed with. I have yet to see a single example of a CT causing a crash. I'm not saying it hasn't happened. I just haven't seen an example.

    On the Anti CT side I see a bunch of theory on why it CTs shouldn't work. Why is it such a big deal to you? You have mentioned that you don't want a CT rider crashing into you. Compared to all the other safety hazards out there such as Texting drivers, drunk drivers, unskilled drivers/riders, deer, lighting, etc, the hazard from CTs (assuming there are any) is pretty insignificant.

    As for the legal issue, it's not my problem. As for regulations, I have seen way too many ridiculous regulations to have much respect for them. Many regulations are written because of our idiotic legal system or due to politics rather than any actual engineering or scientific basis.

    Let me add one more thing. When I first say a CT on a motorcycle I thought "what a stupid idea." I have changed my mind to to actual observations and also all the evidence I have seen.
    Jud and GETTHUMPER2 like this.
  15. FredBGG

    FredBGG Long timer

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    DP
  16. FredBGG

    FredBGG Long timer

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    But pretty much entire motorcycle industry with their engineers and scientists say don't put a car tire on a motorcycle. Even with a lot of different tire companies out their not one even suggests putting a car tire on a 2 wheel motorcycle. If they worked well it would not be that complicated to go and get DOT motorcycle approval and M/C labeling for an existing product.
  17. FredBGG

    FredBGG Long timer

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    Because Darksiders feel really smart and vocal about putting on a car tire, but are then really hush hush about when things go wrong. Just look at that Yellow Wolf clown. Lied about even having crashed his bike....
    CaseyJones likes this.
  18. klaviator

    klaviator Long timer Supporter

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    Is this the engineers speaking or the lawyers? You really don't know do you? I doubt there is enough demand for CTs on bikes to make it worth the effort to go through the testing and certification process. I think that most riders are better off sticking to a MC tire. However, for some riders the CT is a better choice. It all depends on what you ride, how you ride, and what your priorities are.
    Jud and GETTHUMPER2 like this.
  19. Strong Bad

    Strong Bad Former World's Foremost Authority Supporter

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    You should really stop making shit up and trying to present it as factual evidence just to get a reaction. The term for what you are doing is called "Trolling"

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    Motorcycle industry scientists and engineers do not waste company time on the applicability of car tires on their products.
    Jud likes this.
  20. randyo

    randyo Long timer

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    it may be legal, but if it causes you to get in an accident cause it was too windy a day and the surf was up real good, you will be found negligent in a civil suit for creating a hazardous situation

    have you specifically asked your underwriter what there coverage is when the wind blows you off the road into a pedestrian that happens to be a young brain surgeon with a wife and 3 young children
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