carb flooding

Discussion in 'Dakar champion (950/990)' started by ktm frank, Apr 12, 2006.

  1. ktm frank

    ktm frank frenchy adventurer

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2006
    Oddometer:
    102
    Location:
    sherbrooke,P of Q
    recently my bike is hard to start when its warm,i opened the air filter and there was fuel coming out of the needle dripping on the throttle plate
    not much but enough to make the beast hard to start,got to twist it all the way every time,is anyone evr experience the same problem!!!!!:evil
    #1
  2. HellsAlien

    HellsAlien a has-been that never-was

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2004
    Oddometer:
    3,847
    Location:
    Baja Sur winter, Columbia City summer
    Oh yeah, has happened to me but worse (passed enuff gas to cause hydraulic lock in front cyinder!).
    Most likely cause is full tanks or near-full tanks of gas. The gas heats up, expands, floods the famous carbon cannister. Also a vacuum-operated vent valve is closed with engine off that prevents carb bowls from draining (see fuel/emissions system diagram). Others may have more detailed info, but this is basic story.
    Check that all tank vent lines are clear, not pinched to frame.
    Read up on cannisterectomy threads, decide if you want to do that.
    Bike probably won't run right until all fuel boils from cannister, be careful not to ride in heavy traffic, you may have a stall when you need power (don't ask how I know!)
    #2
  3. posole vato

    posole vato Vato Loco

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2006
    Oddometer:
    644
    Location:
    boyle heights, ca.
    yo franky!

    i think i have some sort of carb problem myself...this is the deal...i have two month old 950 with only 300 miles....and it is shutting off at idle (At normal operating temperature) or when i twist the throttle to get started.....also when it was brand new it start immeadiately know.... it takes more than a dozen cranks for it to turn over....

    i didnt take it apart to find out what the deal is....however i am dropping it off at the ktm dealership.....
    #3
  4. K2m

    K2m ....58....

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2005
    Oddometer:
    2,238
    Location:
    Sydney Australia
    The problem is that you have got some dirt in the fuel, and that the float valve is not closing properly because of this dirt. The fuel pump requires back pressure to stop pumping. So the fuel is under pressure and will fill the float bowl until it starts to drip through the main jet, and out of the needle area.

    The solution is to clean the float valve, and to fit a good in-line paper filter like this one which is off a lawn mower that has a fuel pump. Allowed to continue you could indeed end up with hydraulic lock. Good Luck.

    [​IMG][/IMG]
    #4
  5. ktm frank

    ktm frank frenchy adventurer

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2006
    Oddometer:
    102
    Location:
    sherbrooke,P of Q
    I will try what you guys said to me, because it is very probable that the cause is related to the needle and i'll let you know if it cures the booboo
    I thought that dirt might have gone through the carbs,whats bugging me is that i took them off to clean them and of course the erratic carb had some crap in it,i though the problem would be solved but it wasnt so i'm very confused,
    #5
  6. K2m

    K2m ....58....

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2005
    Oddometer:
    2,238
    Location:
    Sydney Australia
    Might be worth draining your tank. This is where it is coming from. After you clean the carb, new dirt gets in. It is just asking for trouble not having a good fuel filter Mr KTM..... Get your act together

    You may have damaged your float valve seal
    #6
  7. ktm frank

    ktm frank frenchy adventurer

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2006
    Oddometer:
    102
    Location:
    sherbrooke,P of Q
    forgot to say that i installed a gas filter exacly like yours and flushed the tanks also otherwise it will make no sense,and it still does the same thing.
    i did not dismantle the long needle (the one with the diaphragm) sorry i dont know how to say that in english .i think i'm gonna have to right?
    #7
  8. Orangetwin411

    Orangetwin411 Katoom Rider

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Oddometer:
    292
    Location:
    Vernon, NJ
    Frank, they are speaking of the carb float. You need to remove the carb bowels and the float to clean that area. You will see a small float needle attached to the float. That stops the flow of gas into the bowel when the float is up ( the bowl is full of fuel). You can clean the area with carb cleaner and some very low psi air. Hope this makes sense. It's easy to see how it works once you take the bottom of the carbs off.
    #8
  9. Venturer

    Venturer AKA klakeman Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2004
    Oddometer:
    905
    Location:
    Dawsonville
    I have had the same symptom when my vent tubes were pinched. In every case, all was fine after I carefully re-routed the tank vent tubes. I might suggest that you check this simple free fix first.
    #9
  10. Tha Rick

    Tha Rick Shake and bake!

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2007
    Oddometer:
    6,858
    Location:
    Los Alamos, NM(Banned camp rehab)
    Howdy inmates. I am having issues with a fuel pump I installed in my 950 making too much pressure. Is there any fuel pressure regulators out there that are recommended by other inmates. The pressure is O.K. for roads, but when I go through whoops it floods the bike out. I got the info for the aftermarket fuel pump http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137838, using the 03307 facet pump.

    Sorry for the stupid question, but I've tried searching for fuel regulators with no results.

    Thanks in advance.
    Tha Rick
    #10
  11. cpmodem

    cpmodem Orange Caveman

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2004
    Oddometer:
    7,130
    Location:
    masa yee yah tee 59° 14' 9" N / 135° 26' 42" W
    Humnn, I'm not familiar with the 03307 Facet pump. Do you have any specs on it?

    12 VOLT FACET® CUBE FUEL PUMPS
    <table border="3" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="3" width="941"><tbody><tr> <td class="style7" width="63">
    PART #​
    </td> <td class="style7" width="91">
    MAX-MIN PSI ​
    </td> <td class="style7" width="44">
    GPH​
    </td> <td class="style7" width="113">
    POSITIVE LEAD​
    </td> <td class="style7" width="110">
    NEGATIVE LEAD​
    </td> <td class="style7" width="118">
    FITTING SIZE​
    </td> <td class="style7" width="52">
    DRY LIFT ​
    </td> <td class="style7" width="79">
    CHECK VALVE​
    </td> <td class="style7" width="127">
    POSITIVE SHUT-OFF​
    </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="style7"> </td> <td class="style7"> </td> <td class="style7"> </td> <td class="style7"> </td> <td class="style7"> </td> <td class="style7"> </td> <td class="style7"> </td> <td class="style7"> </td> <td class="style7"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="style7">
    40104​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    4. - 1.5​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    25​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    N/A​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    .25 RING​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    1/8-27 INT​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    12​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    N​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    N​
    </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="style7">
    40105​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    4.5 - 3​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    30​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    N/A​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    .25 RING​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    1/8-27 INT​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    12​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    N​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    N​
    </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="style7">
    40106​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    7. - 4​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    32​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    N/A​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    .25 RING​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    1/8-27 INT​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    12​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    N​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    N​
    </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="style7">
    40107​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    10. - 7​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    38​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    N/A​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    .25 RING​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    1/8-27 INT​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    12​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    N​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    N​
    </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="style7">
    40108​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    6 - 4.5​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    32​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    .25 BLADE​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    .25 RING​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    3/8 FLARE​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    12​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    N​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    N​
    </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="style7">
    40109​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    7 - 4.0​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    32​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    N/A​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    .25 RING​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    3/8-18 INT​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    24​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    Y​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    N​
    </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="style7">
    40135​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    7 - 4.​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    32​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    PACKARD​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    .25 RING​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    1/8-27 INT​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    12​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    N​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    N​
    </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="style7">
    40136​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    7 - 4.​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    32​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    PACKARD​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    .25 RING​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    1/8-27 INT​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    12​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    N​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    N​
    </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="style7">
    40137​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    7 - 4.​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    32​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    PACKARD​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    .25 RING​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    3/8-18 INT​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    24​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    Y​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    N​
    </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="style7">
    40138​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    7 - 4.0​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    32​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    PACKARD​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    .25 RING​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    1/8-27 INT​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    24​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    Y​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    N​
    </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="style7">
    40139​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    4.5 - 2​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    23​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    PACKARD​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    .25 RING​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    1/8-27 INT​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    24​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    Y​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    N​
    </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="style7">
    40147​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    9 - 4.5​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    32​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    .25 BLADE​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    .25 RING​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    1/8-27 INT​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    24​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    Y​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    N​
    </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="style7">
    40148​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    4.5 - 2​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    24​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    .25 BLADE​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    .25 RING​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    1/8-27 INT​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    24​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    Y​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    N​
    </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="style7">
    40163​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    2.5 - 1.5​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    17​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    .25 BLADE​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    .25 RING​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    1/8-27 INT​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    24​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    Y​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    N​
    </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="style7">
    40166​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    39 -25​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    9​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    175 BULLET​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    ..​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    1/8-27 INT​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    ..​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    Y​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    N​
    </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="style7">
    40171​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    3.5 - 2​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    15​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    PACKARD​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    .25 RING​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    1/8-27 INT​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    12​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    Y​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    Y​
    </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="style7">
    40176​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    5 - 3.5​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    19​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    N/A​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    .25 RING​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    1/8-27 INT​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    36​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    Y​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    Y​
    </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="style7">
    40177​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    2. - 1​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    7​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    N/A​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    .25 RING​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    1/8-27 INT​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    24​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    Y​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    Y ​
    </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="style7">
    40178​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    3.5 - 2​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    15​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    N/A​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    .25 RING​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    1/8-27 INT​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    36​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    Y​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    Y​
    </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="style7">
    40185​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    11.5 - 9​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    32​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    N/A​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    .25 RING​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    1/8-27 INT​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    36​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    Y​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    N​
    </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="style7">
    40189​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    5 - 3.5​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    15​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    AMP​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    .25 RING​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    1/8-27 INT​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    36​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    Y​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    Y​
    </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="style7">
    40217​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    3.5 - 2​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    15​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    .156 BULLET​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    .25 RING​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    1/8-27 INT​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    36​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    Y​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    Y​
    </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="style7">
    40229​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    6 - 4.5​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    32​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    PACKARD​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    ..​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    1/8-27 INT​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    12​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    N​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    N​
    </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="style7">
    40231​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    11.5 - 9​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    25​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    PACKARD​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    .25 RING​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    1/8-27 INT​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    84​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    Y​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    Y​
    </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="style7">
    40232​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    10. - 7​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    34​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    PACKARD​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    ..​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    1/8-27 INT​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    12​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    N​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    N​
    </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="style7">
    40241​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    3.5 - 2​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    15​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    .157 BULLET​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    .25 RING​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    FEMALE FLARE​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    36​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    Y​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    Y​
    </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="style7">
    40252​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    1.5 - 1​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    6.5​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    PACKARD​
    </td> <td class="style7"> </td> <td class="style7">
    1/8-27 INT​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    24​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    Y​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    Y​
    </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="style7">
    40254​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    4 - 1.5​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    25​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    N/A​
    </td> <td class="style7"> </td> <td class="style7">
    1/8-27 INT​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    24​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    Y​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    N​
    </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="style7">
    40257​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    11.5 - 9​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    25​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    N/A​
    </td> <td class="style7"> </td> <td class="style7">
    1/8-27 INT​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    84​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    Y​
    </td> <td class="style7">
    Y​
    </td></tr></tbody></table>
    #11
  12. Gumbydave

    Gumbydave motorcycle doofus

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2006
    Oddometer:
    884
    Location:
    So.California
    speed shops for race cars have nice regulators ($100+)
    e-bay has some too
    pep boys has one too
    be sure to get a low pressure one for carbs not EFI
    one problem is that most cheep fuel pressure regulators only restrict flow, when the line fills up the pressure is back up to what the pump output is.
    good regulators dump excess pressure back to the tank,
    What you need is a pump with 3-4 psi max output
    #12
  13. Tha Rick

    Tha Rick Shake and bake!

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2007
    Oddometer:
    6,858
    Location:
    Los Alamos, NM(Banned camp rehab)
    Thanks, I'll try it.
    #13
  14. cpmodem

    cpmodem Orange Caveman

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2004
    Oddometer:
    7,130
    Location:
    masa yee yah tee 59° 14' 9" N / 135° 26' 42" W
    uk_mouse fitted a regulator to his 950 to solve an over pressure problem caused by the wrong Facet fuel pump. Here's his latest post on the subject:
    http://www.advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6971003&postcount=35

    [​IMG]

    There's a lot of OC chatter and pontification about regulators over on the huge "Another Dead Fuel Pump" thread starting with uk_mouse's post at Post #515

    Enjoy ....
    :freaky
    #14
  15. uk_mouse

    uk_mouse Aquatic adventurer

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2006
    Oddometer:
    1,886
    Location:
    UK
    Based on my experiences with the reg in the picture above, I'd say 2psi is more than adequate. If the dial on the reg is accurate of course! :)
    #15
  16. Tha Rick

    Tha Rick Shake and bake!

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2007
    Oddometer:
    6,858
    Location:
    Los Alamos, NM(Banned camp rehab)

    Remember to waterproof your facet pump with a silicone or rubber sealant to prevent water from shorting the electrics in it.:deal
    #16
  17. Bill English

    Bill English ICUUCME

    Joined:
    May 15, 2008
    Oddometer:
    247
    Location:
    Santa Cruz Mountains
    Whether or not this had anything to do with the original thread...
    I had some horrible problems starting my bike a few time with multiple symptoms. Luckily, I contacted people who could deliver staight answers/ probable causes:
    A) Loose connection to the starter after initial service at the dealership.
    B) Overfilled gas tank, gas in the cannister! AKA needed the canisterectomy.

    Called a local service shop in Santa Cruz. The shop manager: Tom Dillenbeck, is 200% knowledgeable and was totally on track to the problems. Able to separate the issues into meaningful explanations and offered to help out in a pinch if I was in a bind.
    Sure enough, bike needs the modification ASAP.
    Highly recomended!:clap
    #17