CCM 450 Adventure

Discussion in 'Thumpers' started by ktmmitch, Jan 21, 2013.

  1. Colebatch

    Colebatch "Moto Porn"ographer

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    I disagre with that completely. The entire adventure biking thing is a European thing. The beginnings of it, in the 80s with the BMW R80G/S, the 3AJ Tenere, The Africa Twin, Super Tenere ... all designed and built for the European market - specifically for travel in Africa. All included large fuel tanks and range and durability as key features. When Yamaha re-entered the adventure market a few years back, they designed, built and launched the 660 Tenere ... in Europe. For the European market. It has a 22 litre tank.

    The only bike adventure bike designed for or built in the USA or Australia is the Buell XB12 Uly with its 16.5 litre tank.

    If you go adventuring around the developing world, about 70+% of the non local people on bikes you will meet are from Europe - in some parts, like Africa or Mongolia or the stans, its more like 95% European.

    Europe is the home of adventure biking! If anything, the European market gets the decent sized fuel tank thing far more than the US market. After all, a European bike buyer is far more likely to head off into the 3rd world (Africa or Eurasia) with his new bike - or at the very least, he will not buy an adventure bike that is incapable of fulfilling that ambition. That doesnt mean European buyers are necessarily as picky as US buyers about wide ratio boxes tho. See my recommendations below ...

    Regarding this bike, I believe RallyRaidProducts UK (KTM Mitch) who are making the tanks, are also making larger tanks for the rally version of the bike, that will be an option. If they plan to race it in the Dakar, and they say they do, then they will be planning for about 30 litres capacity.

    I also would love a wide ratio box. Especially since changing the front sprocket isnt going to be a 2 minute process. I have one of the quite wide 3.27:1 5 speed boxes on the BMWx bikes and still feel there is room for a 6th gear there, so that one front sprocket does it all (or even keep it 5 speed but widen it even more to get an overall spread of about 3.5:1). From technical single track to all day long 80+ mph motorway cruising. I think unless potential buyers hassle CCM about that, then it wont happen.

    I reckon that if you are in the US, you need to let them know that there is a market for them in the US, cause as stated earlier, they have no distributor in the US

    I also reckon that everyone who enquires about this bike needs to stress to CCM that a different very wide set of gear ratios (ideally delivering a spread of 3.5:1) is an essential part of the "to buy or not to buy" process. If they get mass hassled by potential customers on that issue - and if they understand many people like the bike buy wont buy it without those ratios, they should be able to get Kymco to whip up another set of gears pretty cheaply.
  2. Colebatch

    Colebatch "Moto Porn"ographer

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    That would be very expensive to develop for a low production run of headlights. Unless you could buy something already tested and approved and morph it into the fairing.

    A 35w HID conversion probably wont be too hard.

    Looking at where the end of the upper fork tubes cross the wheel, and therefore how much chrome is exposed, its looks to me to be 275-300mm at the front. (compare it with a 300mm KTM EXC fork). You would imagine it would be the same or very similar at the back. Thats a lot more than a 690.
  3. rickypanecatyl

    rickypanecatyl SE Asia adventure tours

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    I also also would love a wide ratio box! :lol3 Most serious adventure riders can relate to needing to cruise all day at 80+ AND crawl thru terrain at a snail's pace that may not even have been meant to be ridden thru!

    A wide box is also important for the tens of thousands of adventurous Asian riders here who only have one vehicle. They commute with it during the week, and crawl thru the jungles, and go on long freeway road trips on weekends and holidays with the same bike.

    I wrote CCM a letter re using a wide ratio box and they passed it to Austin Chew the director for consideration. I get the feeling they can make a wide ratio box and are open to doing it IF they realize how many potential customers want it.

    Many of you already want it. I realize there are many here that don't see the value of it; many of my American friends for instance have both a GS1200 AND a KTM EXC200 type of bike. When riding with them on the highway we may see some amazing single track and their thought is to come back with the 200 at another time.
    That of course is fun... and the closer you were to home when the easier it is to go back and change vehicles. Nothing wrong with that style of riding.
    But here I just want to make the case that IF you had a "Adventure Bike" that was happy to cruise back to back days at 80 mph AND crawl thru some nasty terrain to get to some other really fun terrain that that opens up a whole new exciting kind of riding if you've never done that before.
  4. George 99

    George 99 Been here awhile

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    Remember the 2-step trannies Honda used to have on their trail bikes? Such might make sense in an adventure bike. (They also did it on a big 4-cylinder road bike just 'cause they could, pretty useless in that situation.)

    A "normal" close ratio 5 speed with added doubler would serve well for both types of riding mentioned above. Might take up a little room but...
  5. byron555

    byron555 Lame Duck Adventurer

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    everything here is true 90% of the time.
  6. byron555

    byron555 Lame Duck Adventurer

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    We (as americans) say we want an adventure, and gear up accordingly. but yet never do it... "I need this/that" etc. The truth is far more pitiful. We (as workers) neither get the time or money... Worst health care per dollar in the free, and not so free world. Time off is considered plague like here, somehow you are a moocher, if you have time off.

    to surmise. the climate here is toxic for 39% + of the population... we are stuck. help?
  7. minkyhead

    minkyhead Long timer

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    cruise at 80mph for days ?? seriuse adventure riders ??
    gs1200 speed ktm 200 ability

    i guess you do the fantasy football competitions too :lol3

    i would like some longer legs on most bikes .. the elisive 6th gear has been missing on some of the best bikes out there since the year dot

    we will have to wait and see

    .. me im content it wont bother me at all

    i cant for the sake of me see why 60 to /70mph is such a showstopper

    ..but i guess im not i n a hurry ..im on me holidays :clap

    ....wheres the rush .. wheres the fire ..not everyones got ants in their pants :eek1


    last time i looked 8 times 65 were 520.. .. its not exactly crawling along ,,

    if your tough teraine is 500 miles away you are one day away ??

    ..if you caned a 650 at 85/90 you would only be there a hour earlier ???? :puke1so ...


    get me a beer :1drinkin theres a good chap ..ill be along shortly :lol3

    65 mph and is a pretty pleasent stress free speed to chug along at on any bike in terms of fuel and concentration ??
  8. rickypanecatyl

    rickypanecatyl SE Asia adventure tours

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    Well I can agree with the last part... :rofl

    Seriously though it is doable to make a bike that can handle cruising on the slab @ 80 mph all day and yet still be able to handle crawling thru really rough stuff and be fun on singletrack. Not as good as the GS or 200EXC in their own element, but doable.

    I have a modded bike that is close... but I'd love to see a OEM version. I've got a 2008 KLX250. It's got:
    351cc motor, pumper carb, pipe/porting to match all of which nearly doubles the hp and its still reliable.
    KX250 Forks/suspension tuned to me and my riding.
    A subframe than can handle a fat donkey tied on to it, custom seat, lights, ergos, etc.

    What it started with was a excellent wide 6 speed box. It's got 91,000KM on the bike; 50K or so on the 351. 1 valve check in that time and probably 10 oil changes.
    Last year I did a quick 11,000KM trip on it from Malaysia, thru Thailand, Burma (yes I went in Burma!) and Laos. On the way up, I did as much off road as possible, stumbled on a local enduro race and entered (took lots of parts off and yes I would have felt better/been more competetive on a bike 25KG lighter BUT I had a blast none the less!)
    The jungle riding in Malaysia/Southern Thailand is the slowest. I actually ride with a machete in hand sometimes. The off road speed pick ups in central/northern Thailand getting close to China.
    At the end, I spent too much time and just had 3 days to get back from where it had taken me 3 weeks to get to (of course with lots of detours/doubling back). I used up my time though because I knew I could make it back in time.
    From the golden triangle back to KL I kept it nearly pinned for 3 days averaging 70-75 mph. (Wish it was 80-85 but that's too much for it.)
    Yeah it would have been better with an EXC on the way up and a GS on the way down BUT that kind of riding is awesome... and yes... that is what serious adventure riding is! Serious adventure riding is not crying because you don't have the best tool for the job where your at; it's making it work with what you got and not ignoring certain trails or roads or places you do really want to go because you left the bike for that back in the garage!
  9. minkyhead

    minkyhead Long timer

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    that sounds fantastic ..the bike you have sounds brilliant for most of the riding you do .. i truely appriciate your spirit of adventure and ability to get off your ass and do it .....also your mechanical knowlage to prepare it ..

    my riding is for enjoyment .. i love open trails and open country desert tracks skandinavian forests and my own back yard is gloriose and so near to four national parks

    im no world traveler ..after three weeks i want to be home to see my grandkids so i leave the serious tyravel to the serious folk who have the balls ambition and energy for it ..i could do it but i couldnt as i would miss my family too much ..i did six weeks away in 2010 and couldnt standbeing away any more .i woke up one morning in poland and just new i had to go
    i just rode home 1350 miles in one hit .. non stop [fuel apart ]such was the need to be back ..
    i found somhing out on that trip ...

    .so circumnavigating the globe is pretty much out ...i reacon 1 month and id have to go home ..i underestimated the pull a family has ....i guess im too soft

    ...

    my plans are less .. i am not a young person ..so the ccm looks to fit my plans well .. i accept its not going to be a slab muncher ..i simply dont care ..it will be my little adventure bike 15 miles from home .. on salter fell on the portugal trails ..in may ..or on the desertracks in africa if it earns enough trust before i go ..or indeed i get it before i go :huh

    cant tell a guy what book he likes ..or what film to watch ..or what bikes best for him ... all things to all people
    main thing is you get what you want ..if thats what you have ..you really cant have better ..if a bikes not fast enough for you before you buy it it sure as heck wont be fast enough for you when you get it ..different folks different stroke

    im afraid i only have one speed .. thats my speed ..and the world has to revolve around me albeit at a softer turn :wink:


    heres my road tourer .. sometimes less is a whole lot more to me :nortonbut im in a minority ..of err 1 :eek1

    so the ccm will be a interconinental ballistic missile to me :lol3





    ride well peace out
    best regards steve
  10. Colebatch

    Colebatch "Moto Porn"ographer

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    Ok guys ... Looking at what Ricky's email conversation with Austin Clews, and bearing in mind CCM is a small manufacturer where one small team, headed by Austin Clews, is responsible for the design, marketing and manufacture of the bike, there is a genuine chance to get involved and affect the design specs of an adventure bike BEFORE the specs are frozen and it goes into final production.

    Judging from Ricky's conversation, CCM absolutely do want to hear from potential buyers on this issue. Here's a chance for ADVrider forums to not only share opinions on bikes, but to actually influence what comes out of the factory.

    There have been alot of comments on here about the attractiveness of a wide ratio box. My personal view is that a wide ratio box takes this bike from a "yeah thats interesting and glad someone has come up with it, but the narrow box puts me off", to a "well they have ticked all the boxes, the bike is the real adventure deal - I really ought to have one".

    For me, for this bike to work, for it to be a winner, the gearbox needs to be able to do technical single track, and cruise at 80 mph (130 km/h) all day long. To do that on a single cylinder bike, they are going to need a wide ratio box with a spread between gears of about 3.5:1 - or MORE. (3.5 - 3.75)

    Reality is, given enough numbers, it should be possible for Kymco to whip up a wide ratio 6 speed box at a relatively small cost per bike, if that was the one and only box in the bike.

    Can we have a show of hands? and please contribute your thoughts on a wide ratio box on this thread.
  11. roadspirit

    roadspirit souvlaki for breakfast

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    this bike could be the ONE ...

    I'm very interested in this, i'm looking at it as my possible overland dream bike! If it prooves relatively reliable and has long service intervals and not complicated maintenance (e.g. to be able to do most stuff on the road, let's say during a day-off riding), then I want it bad!

    Regarding a wide ratio box, I guess it is favourable, even though if it doesn't realize, it won't be a showstopper for me. I was cruising the Panamericana on my F800GS at no more than 120 km/h anyway ...
  12. minkyhead

    minkyhead Long timer

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    the more capable the bike is at doing both tricks the better it will be ,,,works for me ..gets my vote
  13. rickypanecatyl

    rickypanecatyl SE Asia adventure tours

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    Motorcycles are cool but family is cooler. Your making the right choice - respect! :thumb

    Beautiful bike... only thing is if you were on a CCM Adventure you might attempt to:
    a.) Crawl your way up that hill for an even better picture and then
    b.) Zip home 1350 miles in one hit! :lol3
  14. DaveyDave

    DaveyDave Been here awhile

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    Heres my hand Walter. This bike is so close to ticking all the boxes for me and I'll genuinely be in the market for a new bike in a few months time. Are you going to lead this as a group thing as you obviously have a high profile? Happy to get involved in any way I can as well...phone calls, emails etc
  15. rickypanecatyl

    rickypanecatyl SE Asia adventure tours

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    For anyone wondering what Walter means by a 3.5:1 spread in the gearbox vs. 2.49:1 here is how that works on the road.

    If in first gear you are doing 22 mph @ 5,000 rpms, then in top gear at the same rpm's you would be cruising at:
    55 mph with a 2.49:1 box or
    77 mph with a 3.5:1 box.

    (Montessa has a list of how other bikes compare: Montesa's Gear Calculator

    Of course you can raise everything up or everything down by changing the sprockets/final drive. Then the bike wil run happier in either slow or high speed situations but at the cost of the other.

    The reason this is important to get right from the factory is it is really difficult/expensive/unlikely for the aftermarket to tackle later.
  16. Cruz

    Cruz Lost but laughing.

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    Quote

    For me, for this bike to work, for it to be a winner, the gearbox needs to be able to do technical single track, and cruise at 80 mph (130 km/h) all day long. To do that on a single cylinder bike, they are going to need a wide ratio box with a spread between gears of about 3.5:1 - or MORE. (3.5 - 3.75)

    Reality is, given enough numbers, it should be possible for Kymco to whip up a wide ratio 6 speed box at a relatively small cost per bike, if that was the one and only box in the bike.

    Can we have a show of hands? and please contribute your thoughts on a wide ratio box on this thread.[/QUOTE]

    That is what I would want, anything less would make it a non event for me.

    Unfortunately for those of us in Australia, the chances of ever seeing this bike would be very low.

    Will wait for the KTM 390 Adventure with 6 speed wide ratio box and see what it brings to the table.
  17. George 99

    George 99 Been here awhile

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    To pull those wide ratios requires torque. There are legitimate reasons for gear selection between stump pulling low and high speed highway top. 6 speeds can help narrow the gap.

    Still wondering if a lo-hi range 2-step tranny wouldn't fill the need. (Think about the double front ring on yur ol' ten speed bicycle.)
  18. Colebatch

    Colebatch "Moto Porn"ographer

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    Well ... when you have a look at the gear spread ratios in this post by Montesa, you will see that the top 13 widest gearboxes are all on bikes of less than 360cc.

    http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=281742

    Whereas torquey 650cc bikes have been given much narrower boxes.

    Usually the narrower boxes are for MX or enduro racing where you want the rpms in a very small section of the curve. Even for rally racing a wide ratio box is already heavily preferred. As an adventure bike, those top 13 spread ratios being under 360cc implies to me that the 450 will be torquey enough to deal with a 3.75:1 spread.

    Of the top 26 widest box ratios, all of the boxes above 3.3:1 spread, there is only one bike listed above 500cc ... Only one out of 26.
  19. Fishfund

    Fishfund Been here awhile

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    Walter and Ricky. I agree with what you guys are saying and I'm ready to get involved. I have done some long multiple month rides and I think your proposed extremely ride ratio tranny is one of the keys of turning a good bike into a great adventure bike.

    So what is the next step? Do we make a pole? Do we pass out CCM's phone number so everyone can call in. Does CCM even know about this thread? They should be posting here. What do we actually do?
  20. Lutz

    Lutz Fuzzy Rabbit

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    One point people often miss when discussing gear ratio speads is that final drive ratios do impact how the transmission spread works. For a given transmission ratio spread, a lower final drive ratio will result in an effectively narrower transmission. In other words, lower final gearing makes the engine use a wider span of RPM for the same change in road speed. Primary reduction in the engine/transmission has the same effect, and must also be considered in the overall picture.

    Now, those top bikes on Montessa's list are almost all trials bikes or low power trail bikes; these have extremely low effective final gearing, and need a wide ratio transmission to achieve a useful speed range. For these bikes, what seems like a wide ratio box on paper, really won't feel much like one in motion.

    There are solid engineering principles that should be incorporated into selection of transmission and final gearing for any given application. In order to achieve the ADV bike holy grail of a super low tractor first gear and super slab capable top gear, the engine's torque curve (or power curve if you like) is critical. In short, to run at freeway speed, the engine needs to produce enough horsepower to overcome rolling resistance, drag, etc. Larger displacement engines by default are capable of producing a given amount of horsepower at a lower RPM than smaller displacement engines.

    Anyway, back to the point of the new CCM's gear spread. Yes, this bike should come with a "wide ratio" transmission. The BMW/KYMCO 450 would be fully capable of handling a wide ratio spread while maintaining adequate performance for "adventure" riding (trail to freeway).

    I think a dual range transmission could be useful in an adventure bike platform, but it would need to be a clean sheet engine design...much more complicated than modifying the ratios of an existing transmission design.