Countersteer or Die!

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by wadenelson, May 17, 2018.

  1. AZQKR

    AZQKR Long timer

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    You can't remove gyro forces completely if the bike is moving at all. You stated one could remove all gyro forces and in the next breath stated there's gyro forces even at slow speeds.

    Geez, you really are as dense as I've come to believe based on the posts in this thread.
  2. Klay

    Klay dreaming adventurer Supporter

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    Yes, you can minimize gyro forces and essentially remove them, through low speeds and engineering choices. Of course all forces are always present at all speeds but their magnitude becomes relevant or irrelevant based on circumstances. Duh.
  3. AZQKR

    AZQKR Long timer

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    Duh? Essentially remove and remove are not the same. Hence your contradiction earlier. Now you've changed your statement to all forces are always there and it's the degree of magnitude that's relevant or irrelevant in any given situation.
  4. BetterLateThanNever

    BetterLateThanNever It turns out you can't delete your account...

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    Before you start wagging your finger at me, you should read the thread. There’s a lot of context here, and you and I do not generally disagree. You may find it also influences your allegiances. In the meantime, you can put your attitude right there next to that broomstick.
  5. Center-stand

    Center-stand Long timer

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    ..

    The broomstick analogy to riding a motorcycle only works for those thinking like a self appointed physicist. Cyclists don't think that way. It is one thing to understand what someone is trying to say, and another to believe it is the way something should be explained.

    The physicist wants us to think the contact patch is being moved out from under the COG. The cyclist thinks he is leaning the COG away from the contact patches.

    In the broomstick analogy, the finger is chasing the top of the broomstick each time it falls from balance, which is constant and in all directions, because the unstable base, or finger, is not able to find and maintain a balance point.

    The Motorcycle only exhibits characteristics of instability side to side. The design of the motorcycle is such that, that instability decreases with increased forward momentum. Front to back it is not only stable but has devices / design that provide precision control to the rider. Unless we are on that trampoline, in the earthquake, the base we generally ride on is very stable, and we choose the line our contact patches ride on as we lean the bike over to go around curves with precise control.

    I think it is an indication of a very insecure and simultaneously egotistical personality that would choose to constantly find differences instead of trying to find common ground and easily understood principles to explain how and why various things happen as we ride.

    When many answers or statements are one liners, it is easy to make a correct statement that is not relevant to what was being talked about in the previous posts and either shows a lack of understanding or contempt for creating an understanding that might show some common ground.

    I know I'm not the sharpest arrow in the quiver, but I also know when someone who thinks they are smart is intentionally misleading and confusing the issue for their own entertainment.

    ..
    AZQKR and lnewqban like this.
  6. Klay

    Klay dreaming adventurer Supporter

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    I haven't changed anything and there is no contradiction.
  7. Klay

    Klay dreaming adventurer Supporter

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    Yes, you're not the sharpest arrow in the quiver. I don't think there's even any point in addressing this muddled noise. Where to even start?
  8. Klay

    Klay dreaming adventurer Supporter

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    Maybe try to start here. Physics has nothing to do with ego or emotion, and "common ground" has nothing to do with reality. If you're mistaken about the physics of a system, you're mistaken, and reality is not a democracy.
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  9. Center-stand

    Center-stand Long timer

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    ..

    And twice again you prove my point.

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  10. Klay

    Klay dreaming adventurer Supporter

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    Here's something for you to think about. We know that once an object is in motion, it wants to remain in motion and it resists changes of magnitude and direction of that motion. (Newton's laws) How is the cyclist leaning the COG away from the contact patches when the COG of the bike wants to remain moving in the original direction at the original speed, without any outside force of intervention?
  11. Klay

    Klay dreaming adventurer Supporter

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    And again you show that you are unwilling or unable to think clearly.
  12. Center-stand

    Center-stand Long timer

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    It begins with the desire to steer the device.

    How?

    Duh, usually the cyclist leans the bike by first counter steering. Once the bike is leaned the contact patches are no longer directly underneath the COG. The COG, like the rest of the bike, follows the front wheel, though on a slightly different line. The COG has moved in relation to the vertical line from the contact patches.

    At least that's the way a dull arrow sees it.

    ..
  13. Klay

    Klay dreaming adventurer Supporter

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    After the turn the COG has moved. The COG doesn't follow the front wheel when you countersteer. It doesn't move...it wants to continue in the same direction and speed. When you move the contact patches out from under the bike by countersteering, gravity makes the bike start to fall in the other direction.

    Your terms are muddled...you say the "COG like the rest of the bike" when the COG of the bike is the bike.
  14. Center-stand

    Center-stand Long timer

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    Once again you prove my point.

    You said, " How is the cyclist leaning the COG away from the contact patches when the COG of the bike wants to remain moving in the original direction at the original speed, without any outside force of intervention?"

    I wanted to make it clear when you steer the bike, the COG goes with it.

    Sometimes I think you are smart, then you show a stupid side that makes me wonder. Your brain is muddled.

    ..
  15. Klay

    Klay dreaming adventurer Supporter

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    :fpalm No, it doesn't. It continues in the same direction and you fall over in the opposite direction that you steered.

    My mind is absolutely clear. It has a lifetime of riding experience as well as education in analytical mechanics.
  16. IronButt70

    IronButt70 You don't have to be crazy to do this but it helps

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    Rats. Missed it by 13 hours and 24 minutes. Carry on.
  17. Center-stand

    Center-stand Long timer

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    I've got a few minutes this morning, let's dissect this one.
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    What was the COG doing during the turn? Was it off to the side somewhere waiting to see what would happen?
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    The COG can't leave the premises, it will travel with the mass. If the mass follows the front wheel the center of it will follow as well.

    You're going to have to make up your mind, either it doesn't move, or it continues at speed. In my dull arrow sort of way, continuing at speed is moving. It may want to continue in the same direction, but unless we make a bad calculation, it will succumb to the direction the front wheel is going.

    We could break a turn down into separate pieces if you desire, but I think you ruled that out several pages back.
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    That fall is a lean to the desired direction of travel and we arrest that fall in a controlled manner, simplified here by what we generally call, riding a motorcycle. It's a pretty normal action for most of us, and as we turn, the COG follows along the direction of the front wheel, though on a slightly different line.
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    Sometimes it's hard to write a definition for something that is abstract, so I looked this up. The COG is not the bike. The COG is, "that point in a body or system around which its mass or weight is evenly distributed or balanced and through which the force of gravity acts."

    Of course we employ all our facilities and those of the cycle to utilize that force of gravity so that our ride is pleasant and abrasion free, and moves in the direction we desire, not where Newton wants to go.
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    I realize you have an excessive, obsessive, compulsive need to be obstinate. I hope that makes you happy, but I doubt that it does. In many circles someone like you would be considered one sick puppy.
    ..
  18. Klay

    Klay dreaming adventurer Supporter

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    :fpalm

    No, if you steer in one direction without already having a lean in that direction, you're going to fall in the opposite direction, because the COG wants to remain traveling in the original direction. The COG doesn't want to follow the front wheel, it wants to keep moving as it was. Newton's laws of motion, remember?
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  19. Center-stand

    Center-stand Long timer

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    Doesn't matter what Newton or the COG wants, we have the tools to manipulate them into compliance to go where we want to go. Messing with Newton and gravity is what makes curvy roads fun.

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  20. VX Rider

    VX Rider Long timer

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    Yeah....but all those forces are very weak at small velocities
    Even you said.so....

    And so one can, and many do direct steer without the dire consequence of being flung off in the other direction

    Just for fun do the actual math...or a speed of 0.5 fps

    Show your work