Countersteer or Die!

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by wadenelson, May 17, 2018.

  1. Center-stand

    Center-stand Long timer

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2008
    Oddometer:
    1,892
    ..

    Yes, if you steer in one direction without already having a lean in that direction, you might fall in the opposite direction, because the COG wants to remain traveling in the original direction. The COG doesn't want to follow the front wheel, it wants to keep moving as it was. Newton's laws of motion, remember?

    Of course that's not what I said or implied. Your standard way of upping your post count and solidifying you obstinance by saying No.

    ..
  2. Dolly Sod

    Dolly Sod I want to do right, but not right now

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2003
    Oddometer:
    18,873
    Location:
    Richmond, Va
    Balance a broom on your finger and then have it move left without first leaning it left. Try it real slow and film your results.

    Have fun.

    Also try this one, take a bicycle wheel, hold it by the axle and roll it along with you at walking speeds. Then pick up the wheel and holding it by the axle, turn it to the right. Which way does the wheel try to lean?
  3. Center-stand

    Center-stand Long timer

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2008
    Oddometer:
    1,892
    ..

    You can move a balanced broomstick in any direction you want without lean. It's the unbalanced broomstick that hangs you up.

    ..
  4. Dolly Sod

    Dolly Sod I want to do right, but not right now

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2003
    Oddometer:
    18,873
    Location:
    Richmond, Va
    The fall is initiated by steering the support out from under the COG. The support being the contact patch of the wheels. If you steer to the left, gravity pulls the motorcycle down with the pivot at the contact patch, causing the combined COG to fall to the right.
    Klay likes this.
  5. Dolly Sod

    Dolly Sod I want to do right, but not right now

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2003
    Oddometer:
    18,873
    Location:
    Richmond, Va
    Nope. You have to lean it first. If you balance a broomstick vertically, then move your hand to the left one of two things happens. If you moved your hand faster or at the same rate of acceleration as gravity then the COG of the broom would fall strait down with the broom rotating around the COG as it falls. If you move your hand slower than the acceleration of gravity the broom will lean in the direction opposite of the movement of your hand pivoting on your finger instead of at the COG.

    To make a boom, that is balanced vertically, move in a specific direction you must first unbalance it; you have to move your hand opposite the desired direction to initiate lean, then move your hand in the desired direction to balance gravity v. lateral movement. It doesn't matter how slow you try and move your hand. The brooms COG is at rest and since you can only apply a force to the bottom of the broom it will always try to pivot around it's COG instead of moving laterally with your hand.

    The same is true for a bicycle and motorcycle. To move it left or right, you must first lean the bikes combined COG in that direction, and because a bike/motorcycle has no lateral stability, you must always lean the combined COG into a turn, no matter the speed.

    If you had a motorcycle or bicycle that would balance itself when totally stationary, then it is possible that that little bit of lateral stability would be enough to counteract the lateral forces encountered when turning and you could possibly direct steer into turns at a slow enough speed. That's what training wheel do.
    Klay and lucky13gsa like this.
  6. Jim Moore

    Jim Moore "You ain't black!"

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2001
    Oddometer:
    35,899
    Location:
    Jax, FL
    Which one of you guys is this? Jeez, poor Cobie.

    lnewqban, Dolly Sod and lucky13gsa like this.
  7. C/1/509

    C/1/509 Now with more sarcasm

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2006
    Oddometer:
    14,057
    Honestly, some people probably shouldn't ride.
  8. Center-stand

    Center-stand Long timer

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2008
    Oddometer:
    1,892
    ..

    If you want to talk about this you need to go back and read what I quoted from no, and then my response, then his followup.
    ..
  9. Dolly Sod

    Dolly Sod I want to do right, but not right now

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2003
    Oddometer:
    18,873
    Location:
    Richmond, Va
    He is correct about falling to the opposite side of the direction you steer when initiating lean. You have moved forward in the process to how the COG reacts once lean is initiated and you direct steer into the turn to balance the gravitational and centrifugal forces.

    This conversation has been about the need to initiate lean before direct steering into a turn. At all speeds.

    There are several who have said at a certain speed one need not first counter steer to to initiate lean. That when going slow enough they can simply direct steer a vertical balanced COG without the need to lean it into the turn first.

    One has claimed that it is the centrifical effect of the rotation of the wheels that allows this. They seemingly fail to grasp that a rotating wheel turned to the right actually causes a lean to the left, thereby forcing the bike to lean opposite the necessary direction to maintain balance.
    Klay likes this.
  10. Center-stand

    Center-stand Long timer

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2008
    Oddometer:
    1,892
    ..
    Did you ever watch NASA move one of the shuttle spacecraft? For every degree / amount / level of equilibrium, there is a speed or movement that it can tolerate and stay in equilibrium. Like I said, it's the unbalanced broomstick that hangs you up.
    ..

    ..

    And if you had a broomstick that was balanced when stationary then it is possible that that little bit of lateral stability would be enough to counteract the lateral forces encountered when moving and you could possibly move it around in any direction at slow enough speed.

    ..
    ..

    I am well aware of what the conversation has been about.

    And I duly noted he was correct. However his implication was that my statement was incorrect, but he was either not understanding what had been said or was deliberately misdirecting just so he could say "no". His statement was not relevant to what he quoted from me, based on my statement being a response to what I quoted from him. If you follow his lead you are making the same mistake he did.

    "That fall" was reference to his statement saying,

    "When you move the contact patches out from under the bike by countersteering, gravity makes the bike start to fall in the other direction."

    To which I replied,

    "That fall is a lean to the desired direction of travel and we arrest that fall in a controlled manner, simplified here by what we generally call, riding a motorcycle. It's a pretty normal action for most of us, and as we turn, the COG follows along the direction of the front wheel, though on a slightly different line.

    That seems like pretty plain English to me, we both acknowledged counter steering to initiate lean, shouldn't be over the head of those with advanced math and physics background. Continuation of thought from one post to the next seems difficult for no.

    I like debate, I don't even mind if I am wrong and learn something from time to time, but you can't debate with someone who constantly changes context without notice.

    ..
  11. Dolly Sod

    Dolly Sod I want to do right, but not right now

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2003
    Oddometer:
    18,873
    Location:
    Richmond, Va
    I've already posted a pic of my broom. :deal
  12. Klay

    Klay dreaming adventurer Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2005
    Oddometer:
    120,125
    Location:
    right here on my thermarest
    No one direct steers through a corner successfully. You always have to have a lean in the direction of the turn, no matter how small.
  13. Klay

    Klay dreaming adventurer Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2005
    Oddometer:
    120,125
    Location:
    right here on my thermarest
    Your thinking is unbelievably muddled.
  14. Klay

    Klay dreaming adventurer Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2005
    Oddometer:
    120,125
    Location:
    right here on my thermarest
    Take this, for example. There is a speed or movement that can be "tolerated" and still stay in "equilibrium?" This is empty-headed gobble-de-gook. Every force has an act on the spacecraft, no matter how large or small the force. The spacecraft reacts to every force proportionately. What the hell do you mean by "equilibrium?" Sorry.
  15. Klay

    Klay dreaming adventurer Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2005
    Oddometer:
    120,125
    Location:
    right here on my thermarest
    :imaposer


    Good god, they don't make them all with the same brain power, do they...
  16. Center-stand

    Center-stand Long timer

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2008
    Oddometer:
    1,892
    ..
    balance
    [bal-uh ns]
    See more synonyms for balance on Thesaurus.com
    noun
    1. a state of equilibrium or equipoise; equal distribution of weight, amount, etc.
    2. something used to produce equilibrium; counterpoise.
    3. mental steadiness or emotional stability; habit of calm behavior, judgment, etc.
    ..

    You might be out of balance, the force is getting to you. You've been talking about balance for 20 or 25 pages and you don't know what it means.

    ..

    A pendulum in a state of balance has some stability. Maybe a little, maybe a lot.

    ..

    Let me clarify the shuttle statement. I'm speaking of when it was in an upright position on the crawler that moved it to the launching pad, not in spaceflight. But, I'm pretty sure balance was important then as well.

    ..
  17. Klay

    Klay dreaming adventurer Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2005
    Oddometer:
    120,125
    Location:
    right here on my thermarest
    Can someone let me know when this poster has something more than muddled noise to say?
  18. Center-stand

    Center-stand Long timer

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2008
    Oddometer:
    1,892
    ..

    Why do you think they move slowly? Why did they not do this in 40 mph winds?






    ..
  19. Center-stand

    Center-stand Long timer

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2008
    Oddometer:
    1,892
    e·qui·lib·ri·um
    ˌēkwəˈlibrēəm,ˌekwəˈlibrēəm/
    noun
    1. a state in which opposing forces or influences are balanced.
      "the maintenance of social equilibrium"
      synonyms: balance, symmetry, equipoise, parity, equality;
      stability
      "the equilibrium of the economy"
      • a state of physical balance.
        "I stumbled over a rock and recovered my equilibrium"
      • a calm state of mind.
        "his intensity could unsettle his equilibrium"
        synonyms: composure, calm, equanimity, sangfroid; More
  20. Klay

    Klay dreaming adventurer Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2005
    Oddometer:
    120,125
    Location:
    right here on my thermarest