Countersteer or Die!

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by wadenelson, May 17, 2018.

  1. Center-stand

    Center-stand Long timer

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    ..

    Look at him, rolling around on the floor. He's lost his equilibrium.

    ..
  2. IronButt70

    IronButt70 You don't have to be crazy to do this but it helps

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    I can balance a chair on my forehead. Does that count?
  3. Dolly Sod

    Dolly Sod I want to do right, but not right now

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    NASA will be contacting you soon.
  4. IronButt70

    IronButt70 You don't have to be crazy to do this but it helps

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    That would be way cool. I live about 30 minutes from KSC. Do they need any 70 YO astronauts?
  5. Dolly Sod

    Dolly Sod I want to do right, but not right now

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    I don't doubt it, you should start working up your consultation fees.
  6. IronButt70

    IronButt70 You don't have to be crazy to do this but it helps

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    Following along the line of $300 hammers I think $500 per hour is fair.
  7. Dolly Sod

    Dolly Sod I want to do right, but not right now

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    You're probably worth more than two hammers.
  8. IronButt70

    IronButt70 You don't have to be crazy to do this but it helps

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    :jack
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  9. C/1/509

    C/1/509 Now with more sarcasm

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  10. Klay

    Klay dreaming adventurer Supporter

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    It's obvious that you don't even understand how to apply that concept.
  11. Center-stand

    Center-stand Long timer

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  12. BywayMan

    BywayMan Been here awhile

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    On small back-road corners, with the start to the end of the corner about 10' to 15' on the yellow line, counter-steering falters on my V-Strom. Go faster, and more lean is needed than I'd want for the speed achieved . Go slower, and control suffers. So there is a point where counter-steering and low speed swerving either overlap, meet, or leave a gap of centrifical anarchy. The bike has Shinko E705s which have a more rounded profile than the original TWs., and an quick tip-in.
  13. AZQKR

    AZQKR Long timer

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    At the police motor course this summer, they started the counter steer part of the day at 20mph. Increased in increments of 5mph until 35mph was achieved without hitting the cones. You're suggesting you can't take a corner at 20mph or that you're uncomfortable with the amount of lean required to make the turn based on tires?
  14. BywayMan

    BywayMan Been here awhile

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    I handle such corners regularly, not always with the smoothness my skill level warrants and that handles highway mountain sweepers and city street corners quite well. My issue is with narrow 2-lane highway corners as small curves (usually left-hand). While it's the only situation where I'm riding directly toward a flat surface, like a stone wall, right before entering the curve, I don't let fixation effect me. Right now I'm blaming the bike (it can't talk back), since slowing down to safely enter the curve makes leaning enough through it awkward at times, particularly if my speed drops below 20 mph . The Shinkos do encourage a quick turn-in.
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  15. lucky13gsa

    lucky13gsa lost

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    The principles of how you steer your V-Strom do not change and counter-steering does not falter on small back road corners.

    It is true, radius, lean angle, speed are all directly related. For a given radius, to increase speed, you need to increase your lean angle (or put your body in a position to effectively do the same thing.) If you go slower, you will tighten the radius if you keep the same lean angle.

    There are certainly corners where I feel more comfortable than others, and I would think that is generally true unless your initials are TP. Improving throttle/brake control, smoothness, vision/sight lines, line selection, and a better understanding of how a motorcycle works can really help one expand their skillset to reduce the examples of tricky situations where he or she may feel out of control. The best place I have found to learn this has been the track, assisted by coaching from some truly fast riders. And seat time to work on small pieces, and allow my ol brain time to recalibrate. 'Sportbike Riding Techniques' by Nick Ienatsch and 'Twist of the Wrist' by Code are full of better descriptions and explanations than I can summarize - putting it into practice at speed has been the best educator for me. ('at speed' includes low speed tightening radius corners.)
  16. Lion BR

    Lion BR I'd rather be riding

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    Counter steering is something that seems completely bogus... because it appears to run "counter" to logic, the logic we experience when driving a car. And all along, and unfortunately unknowingly for many, we ALL do it when we ride, at least to start the leaning for a curve.

    The best riders, however, and the ones who probably have the most fun on canyon/mountain/curvy roads rides, and who are by far the safest riders, are the ones who put it in practice purposefully. Because if there is an emergency mid-curve, and you need to change direction, at whatever speed you are, only knowing to purposefully use counter steering will allow you to make the adjustments you will need, to put the bike on an exact trajectory and with the capacity to adjust it immediately... Otherwise... if you run wide you may lose the front end when making a wrong adjustment (turning front wheel into the curve), or you will run into what you were avoiding to hit in the first place. You are not driving a car, so that instinct of "turning the wheel" into the curve when going wide, or away from the obstacle you are trying to avoid, has to go away when an emergency arise while you are riding a motorcycle.

    Instead of fighting the reality, embrace it, make purposeful counter-steering moves your main goal for riding better before you advance on the next best practice, and love to ride more. The longer you continue to deny this, the longer you are from becoming a better rider.
  17. MGV8

    MGV8 Long timer Supporter

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    Ride a Sidecar and get a right hand corner wrong, you'll understand the true meaning of countersteer quickly, if you survive. :muutt
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  18. Andyvh1959

    Andyvh1959 Cheesehead Klompen Supporter

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    I did an exercise during the Street Skills 2 course at Road America last spring where I have my students ride steady speed on the main straight at 35 to 45 mph and simply push-press alternately on the grips and feel how the bike responds. That is a simple exercise to instill confidence and confirm that countersteering does work quickly and accurately to control where the bike will track.

    I also tell my students who question countersteering; next time you are rolling through a familiar curve out in the back roads, while in the turn, "Steer" in the direction of the turn and realize where your bike goes, which on a RH turn is certainly into the LH lane. Then countersteer into the same turn and you'll realize how the bike takes a tighter line. The whole idea is the RIDER controls the bike path instead of reacting to the bike path. Whenever I read a crash report of "the rider failed to negotiate the turn" relative to all the roads I know in Wisconsin, I know its a rider who had no idea how to choose/control the path of his/her ride.

    I am planning to ad an exercise to the Street Skills 2 course, on a long sweeping RH curve easily taken at 30 to 40 mph, have the students make at least three path adjustments from inside to outside line, which is only achievable by active countersteering. I want the students to understand that even in a turn, at a reasonable lean, the rider can easily and accurately alter/control their line at any time with no drama. If doing that, learning and applying that, if one student avoids running out of control on the road all the work is worth it.
  19. lucky13gsa

    lucky13gsa lost

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    look, push/lean, turn... was so simple to learn years ago. :-)

    or was it... look, lean, roll (on the gas) ?

    whatever it was, countersteering was not a mystery to me when i started riding motorcycles, and i am glad. perhaps years of bicycles, taking stuff apart, and cool teachers with labs or life examples about how stuff worked made a difference.
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  20. Andyvh1959

    Andyvh1959 Cheesehead Klompen Supporter

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    I first "learned" countersteering way back when I was 17 riding my new CB350F. On the empty back roads I'd try to swerve back and forth through the dashed center line, and I could NOT do it. Until, by chance, I countersteered through a few and "bing" on went the light. Suddenly I'm doing the dashed line swerve at 60 mph. So I learned to actively countersteer in my 1st year of riding, which may have something to do with surviving 45 years of riding. Early on I felt the urge to try things and feel the bike react.

    When I teach the Street Skills 1 and 2 courses at Road America we have the best set up. A closed clean track. Non-racing format. Safety crews at the ready. No traffic. And yet, when I coach riders to try something, even after I show them how it works on my bike, I see so many riders so tentative to try something and learn what thye and the bike can do. Which, ok, that's their choice, as long as they always ride in the context of their ability limits and comfort level. What gets riders in trouble though, is when the rider HAS to do something and the skill sets aren't there to help out.
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