Countersteering confusion : (

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by IrishJohn, Dec 30, 2012.

  1. hippiebrian

    hippiebrian Long timer

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    Well, I did not attend his class (obviously) and could only go with what was stated in the article, which DID state that one learns to countersteer unconsciously and that even pros do it unconsciously. I am in no way an idiot because I quoted an article. You may disagree with me on whether conscious countersteering is needed, espescially on the street at sane speeds, but that is not quite a good reason to call me a dummy or an idiot.

    And once again, if a "noob" can change the direction of a motorcycle, they already know how to countersteer. If they can hold a line, if they can learn to scan ahead and learn that the motorcycle will go where they look, and if they can learn to not outride their abilities or vision, they will be safe on the street. If you have to consciously pay attention to countersteering, you are doing it wrong. To place so much emphasis on countersteering is to take away emphasis from turning your head (which takes a conscious effort at first before it becomes habit) and looking through the turn instead of directly in front of you (which takes a conscious effort at first before it becomes habit). If you can already change the direction of a motorcycle, it is these last two things that need your concentration, and not the countersteering you are already doing.

    This is coming from someone who was a rider for 20 years before he even heard the word countersteer, yet had not ever crashed. If consciously countersteering was that important, I wouldn't be here for you to attack.

    Oh, and none of the above makes me an idiot or a dummy in any manner, shape, or form.
  2. Center-stand

    Center-stand Long timer

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    I think the author (Code)is saying we learn to counter steer without knowing we learn it, and continue to counter steer, perhaps for many years, without ever realizing what we are doing.

    The knowledge of counter steering goes "uninspected", or without conscious awareness that we are doing it.

    "Uninspected", as used in the article, is not a use of the term I am familiar with. To inspect would mean to look closely, I suppose uninspected would mean not looked at closely.

    While Mr. Code might be the leading proponent of actively counter steering, the article makes no mention or suggestion that the "uninspected" should be inspected. He merely notes that all who ride two wheels, counter steer whether they know it or not. He is also recognizing that many extremely talented racers misinterpret how they get their bikes around a race track. "Uninspected", in this instance, is not a good or bad thing, it is simply a fact of life for many two wheel riders.

    I am always taken aback when those who would disagree are so quick to call others names, generally in an effort to suggest they are smarter than those who they disagree with. "Deliberately obtuse", is a phrase used too often by those unwilling to consider the opinion of others, and might better describe an inward view of those using it, than the person it is directed toward.

    ..
  3. PJay

    PJay Any bike, anywhere

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    OK, let's use "wilfully ignorant" as the functional equivalent of idiotic, then.

    [edit] Grammar correction; picky bunch, aren't we? (But in my country, "wilful" is the correct spelling.)
  4. Center-stand

    Center-stand Long timer

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    Your suggestion that we should use "wilfully ignorant" (sic) as the functional equivalent of idiocy, only serves to provide us with the fact that you are willfully ignorant of your idiocy.

    Just kidding, I don't know you that well.:D

    ..
  5. greycountyduc

    greycountyduc Adventurer

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    Hey Bran Flake, yeah you hippy,..I'm gonna keep :rofl and :lol3 at you and your

    assine shit because all you want is:splat and :baldy .

    People have kindly tried reasoning with you, you're the biggest troll on here.

    B.t.w. I'm not going to engage with you, because that is all you want.

    Go back in your backyard and tend the weed plants,..:rofl:rofl:rofl:rayof
  6. hippiebrian

    hippiebrian Long timer

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    Love this! A different opinion around here and this is the crap you get. Amazing. So much for honest, open discussion I suppose...
  7. Center-stand

    Center-stand Long timer

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    Hi PJay,

    It's always risky trying to insert a bit of humor with word play. I'm glad you have a sense of humor.

    I discovered the difference in spelling while Googling the definitions of willful ignorance and idiocy. I only noted the different spelling because it was different, not wrong. I Googled the definitions because I didn't want to show my ignorance by speaking too soon.

    The real discrepancy is that willful ignorance and idiocy (or idiotic) are not actually synonymous, but you are right that is picky. :wink:

    ..
  8. LittleRedToyota

    LittleRedToyota Yinzer

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    heh. i had the opposite experience. grew up riding dirt bikes and every bike i've ever owned has been a dirt bike or lightweight dual sport with a 21" front wheel.

    first time i rode a sport bike, i almost rode it straight off the road on the first turn. fortunately, i knew about countersteering and was being cautious enough that i had to time consciously realize i needed to push the left handle bar a lot harder to make it around the (left) curve. but, i came pretty close to just riding straight off the road, and if i had not known about countersteering, i probably would have.

    it is amazing how differently different types of bikes turn.
  9. Buliwyf

    Buliwyf Been here awhile

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    Yeah, a Japanese I4 sportbike is nearly impossible to ride without a concerted bit of countersteering. I have no idea how those riders can not notice it.
    And the older short wheelbase models drop in FAST with a little counter steering.

    I tried some way different tire pressures and I was able to steer my Ducati with the pegs on a very hot day, both hands on the tank and steering damper set full loose, through some sweepers. But I did notice the bars counter steering a little on their own as I rocked the bike. I didn't try it standing up. I think if I jump on it hard with my 200 pounds way up in the air, I can get it to work better.

    But to emergency swerve without countersteering? No way, not happening on that bike, it's too planted.
  10. Andyvh1959

    Andyvh1959 Cheesehead Klompen Supporter

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    Did a MSF class this weekend, and all my students had some level of prior "experience" . When it came to the swerve portion, one young guy would not get the press-press of the swerve, and hit the obstacle line. I described the process as "don't think it, just do it, press left-go left, press right-go right." And he would steer the handlebar like a car each time. Until he finally did it and realized HE controlled it. Then he made it all the time.

    But, this was a rider of "experience" as he claimed.

    Yes, it is possible to make a cycle lean using your feet on the pegs, or knee into the tank, or even just by leaning the upper body into the turn. It works, slowly. But when you HAVE to do it quickly, like for a swerve, the hands doing the press-press of countersteering win all the time.
  11. pretbek

    pretbek Long timer

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    Oh shit.

    There's trouble now.

    You are going to soooooo upset Hippie Brian.
    You actually taught someone to push-steer (countersteer, whatever). And teach an experienced rider at that.

    You are not supposed to do that. Everyone does it right by intuition, by themselves. Otherwise they would have been a dead motorcyclist already.
    No really, Hippie says so.

    Andyvh, it's been nice knowing you. Hippie is gonna tear you a new one now for teaching. :cry
  12. hippiebrian

    hippiebrian Long timer

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    First off, I'm thinking he didn't have the experience he claimed to have.

    Second off, I wonder what would happen if you had them do the excercise without telling them "push, push"? It's possible, espescially if he's been riding for any time at all and has ridden a bicycle for any period at all, that the reason he tried to steer like a car is specifically becdause he was thinking about it too hard. Might be a good idea to have them do it first, then to tell them how they did it.
  13. GeneralGarden

    GeneralGarden Long timer

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    that's a bit like making someone explain how to shift while actually doing it. He's going to break the gearbox before he gets a smooth shift done.
  14. hippiebrian

    hippiebrian Long timer

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    Not the same. If the person has ridden a bicycle or motorcycle and has changed directions, they have countersteered.

    If a person has never operated a motorcycle, they have never used a hand clutch and a foot shifter. They need to be taught, and some pick it up more quickly than others.
  15. Dolly Sod

    Dolly Sod I want to do right, but not right now

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    Once I started consciously counter steering I became a much better rider and no longer had "oh shit" moments where I couldn't make the bike turn sharper.
  16. hippiebrian

    hippiebrian Long timer

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    I got that by learning to look through the turn and as far ahead as possible.
  17. GeneralGarden

    GeneralGarden Long timer

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    no, I mean an experienced rider explaining what he does instead just doing it. He won't be able to coordinate clutch and shifting if he starts thinking about it, let alone explain it.

    Regarding concious countersteering: the one excercise I know that needs concious countersteering is (hard front) braking in a corner. That should only be a emergency excercise, but if you have to rapidly slow down that's what you have to do. And without concious countersteering the bike will stand up and you run wide.
  18. catweasel67

    catweasel67 RD04

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    I've of the opinion, still, that there are two types of counter-steering *cue scoffing*..

    passive & active.

    Passive is simply what we all do to get from a to b on a daily basis. It comes naturally to most of us and is pretty much done on a subconscious level.

    Active on the other hand is when we exert more pressure than is normal on the bars in order to turn into a bend quicker - when you "actively" engage with the bars.

    99% of my riding is done using passive counter-steering only. It's pretty rare for me to actively counter-steer and it's done, invariably, to correct an avoidable mistake or to negotiate an avoidable hazard - indicators, to me at least, that I let my attention lapse.

    On the track, it's a different ball-game.
  19. Jim Moore

    Jim Moore Souped-Up Weasel

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    That's a pretty good point. I try to actively countersteer as much as possible, just because I like it. I tell my students that they can get through the vast majority of their motorcycling careers just sort of meandering from turn to turn, like the hippy. But one day you're going to need to countersteer. If you've never practiced it or thought about it there is no way to create that skill in the second or two you have to make that correction.
  20. hippiebrian

    hippiebrian Long timer

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    Because one day they may need to change direction because not everywhere they want to go is directly in front of them on a perfectly straight road, I suppose...