CPAP. Is my ADV life over? NO!!!!

Discussion in 'Camping Toys' started by NachoRoto, Sep 12, 2012.

  1. locopny

    locopny Been here awhile

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    I just started using a CPAP myself. My lovely gal was concerned when I stopped breathing/snoring at night causing her not to get any sleep either. I am going to look into the 12V running. Stuff I had not considered yet.
    Thanks for the post to jumpstart thought on it.
  2. Charleetho

    Charleetho Mr. Zoom Zoom

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    I second the recommended dental appliance. I have mild SA.

    I HATED the CRAP machine. I was constantly waking up from the wind blowing up my nose. The constant noise drove me nuts. That dam hose. Tried a couple different masks. After a 3-4 months of sleepless nights and several close calls wanting to smash the dam machine, I did some research and found the dental appliance.

    I love it. Been using it for 3-4 years. It took a couple months of adjusting the screws to slowly open the airway. It also keeps me from grinding my teeth. I do forget to put it in occasionally and fall asleep without it. Definitely can tell in the AM I had less deep sleep.

    I used to travel 3 weeks a month and love camping and it works well for my lifestyle. It fits in a denture case. For me it was the dental appiance or nothing.

    No side effects

    YMMV
  3. GHanson

    GHanson Been here awhile

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    After powering the Z2 for 7:31 last night with the PowerAdd 32000 battery I recharged the battery on-bike. Starting at 76% charge the batt was up to 92% after one hour, 97% after two hours and 100% sometime during the next half hour.

    This seemed familiar, and a search revealed I did this three years ago:

    To update my experience with the PowerAdd 32000 battery and my Phillips Respironics machines (post #113), I get about 3.5 - 4 nights out of a charge, using approximately 25% per night. Straight pressure, no EPR, heat, etc. I try to not fully discharge the battery though, so I recharge it daily.

    I use a universal car charger plugged into the unswitched outlet in my trunk; it takes approximately 2:15 to fully charge the battery from 75%. I was curious about how hot the charger might get, so I charged the battery in the garage one hot summer day and checked it periodically; the charger got a little warm, but never hot in in the closed trunk.

    So I can use the PAP machine at night and charge the battery whilst underway the next day, or even wait until I call it a day and charge it while farting around the campsite before turning in. I doubt the small amount of charge it takes affects the bike battery too much.

    I wanted a power source that is small, simple, and light weight. Sometimes I leave the humidifier at home to save space, and sometimes bring it along for passive humidification. Overall I'm happy with this setup.


    Using the universal laptop car charger with 19V output selected (to match the output voltage of the supplied AC charger for the battery) gives enough oomph to fully charge the battery.

    The Phillips Respironics System One machines worked well for travel, but the Z2 is a lot smaller and lighter and easier to deal with. The first time I ever heard of PAP machines was about 18 years ago when we had a jumpseater show up with what looked like a bowling ball bag along with his other gear; he explained what it was, and when I hefted it it felt like it weighed 10 pounds or so. Things have certainly improved since then, PAP-wise.

    On using the Z2: I couldn't hear any difference in noise level with and without the muffler, one of the many benefits of hearing loss. So I left it off. Ditto the alleged chirp between inhale and exhale flows. I forgot to use the heat-moisture exchanger and didn't notice any discomfort this morning, nasally speaking. I'll give them a try, but maybe they're unnecessary. Overall I have high hopes for the Z2, especially the convenience of having everything in one small bag that I can grab and go, rather than scrambling to round up machine, hoses, mask, etc. Sierra One Bravo is always the way to go.
    Pdrhound likes this.
  4. ToothDocJay

    ToothDocJay Been here awhile

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    I posted in this thread a long time ago, and as a dentist, simply offered up these appliances (which I also wore) as an alternative to packing around a CPAP and it's associated requirements on trips, something that I thought might be of help for those riders using CPAP currently.

    I was pretty much attacked by some of the posters in the thread and accused of just trying to make a buck (not likely, I don't live anywhere near those individuals) and was lectured to by those who thought my experience and knowledge was not up to theirs. I also heard that these appliances were "too expensive" to risk trying. Keep in mind that these comments were coming from people who spend THOUSANDS on their bikes and farkles, but when it came to a quality of life opportunity wouldn't pull out their wallets. It's not about the cost, it's about what they valued.

    These appliances can work wonderfully, but they do have some drawbacks as is being asked about below;


    All of these issues need to be evaluated by a dentist before you proceed with having an appliance made.

    Jaw Pain can occur, usually during your initial adjustment period. Not typically long lasting.

    Sore teeth and gums can happen, if the appliance is too tight or pressing on tissue that it shouldn't. All adjustable issues though. You must have a healthy dentition to wear these appliances. If you have bad perio (gum disease) and only a few teeth these are not for you. It's unlikely that these will loosen restorations, but you should be sure that the restorations you have are in the best shape possible BEFORE getting an appliance. That's just common sense.

    Excess salivation or dry mouth can also be an issue. The excess salvation can be a temporary response to having a mouth full of appliance and will usually diminish with use. Dry mouth can actually lessen IF you are now breathing nasally instead of orally.

    The biggest issue is "Possible damage or permanent change to the jaw position/bite". I experienced this myself after wearing an appliance for over 10 years and have since stopped wearing my appliance (actually I'm going to make another soon and use it just a few times a week). In many cases the change is muscular/positional not permanent. You are actually supposed to do certain exercises or wear a re-positioning splint first thing in the morning for the first 20 or 30 minutes to help minimize this.

    All in all they can be a very good and convenient alternative or adjunct to a CPAP. Especially if you opt to use the appliance while travelling. Far less bulk and no electrical challenges.

    Cost wise, yes they aren't cheap. The lab cost is high, and that has to be passed onto the patient. The doctor has to pay all his overhead (which isn't cheap in dentistry) and then his fee. That includes multiple visits for impressions, fittings and adjustments. If you want cheap...you can buy ones online and they are worth what you pay for them.

    Or........stick with your CPAP. They work, they just aren't the only option you have. If you want an appliance, be sure to see someone with experience in their creation.
  5. Baroquenride

    Baroquenride Everyone dies, but not everyone truly lives.

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    ToothDocJay, I appreciate your knowledgeable input on this and the pro's and cons. Although you did get some pushback, your expertise in this is still appreciated. What you didn't state however is that many times the appliance is an out of pocket expense for many people and the CPAP is paid for by insurance. It's hard to spend close to $800-1000 on something that isn't a guarantee when the CPAP is a known quantity that works, AND it's covered by insurance or the VA. That was my issue. If there was a way to have a money back guarantee, I think a lot more folks would try it out.

    Interestingly, I had an experience back in August where I had accidentally left my CPAP at home right by the door :baldy:baldy:baldy on a week long TDY to Hawaii. I realized it about 5 min before liftoff and, looong story-short, my dentist who is also in my unit and on the TDY, made me a makeshift appliance out of two molds glued together. Although I didn't get quite as good of sleep quality, I was able to get better sleep than without it and was able to complete the mission and get by fairly well. It made me realize that I can probably spend the $$$ and it'll work for me on a trip. In fact, I take it with me as a backup now and have been considering spending the money for a real appliance in the future.
    stoney4vida, JRWooden and Bigbob1 like this.
  6. ToothDocJay

    ToothDocJay Been here awhile

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    That depends on your insurer. Most will let you have either one, but they (reasonably) won't pay for both. Most of my patients with extended health insurance can get an appliance as long as they have a diagnosis and written prescription from their Doctor. In most cases they can get a new appliance every 5 years if needed. Mileage may vary with the insurer though. For the most part the patient has to pay their dentist for the appliance, and then can submit their bill to the insurer for a reimbursement. Just be sure ahead of time that the insurance company has pre-authorized the expense.

    All I'm saying is that for the cost, (keep in mind that I'm in Canada) you are probably looking at $1200 on the low side and up to $1800 on the other end. When you take into account the benefits of these appliances (or CPAP) for quality of life, and speaking as a user, I don't think that amount of money is too much. Naturally that's a personal/financial decision for each individual to make.

    Since my condition is not as severe as others I can use one or not, but I can definitely tell the difference in quality of sleep over time if I don't use my appliance. If you value a good sleep you need one or the other of these things. All I'm saying is consider an appliance at the same time as you consider a CPAP. CPAPs are more "user friendly" as they work for most people.

    The same cannot be said for an airway appliance. A lot of different factors must be taken into account before a patient can get one. These include;

    -health of the dentition
    - weight
    - neck size
    - tongue size
    - oral hygiene

    Knowing that if you are properly diagnosed these appliances work, I just think that the convenience of a small appliance instead of a electrical driven CPAP on a bike trip must have VALUE.

    I'm just trying to be a voice saying "Appliances ARE an option" for some. I was accused of being biased because I make money doing appliances. Yet at the same time I do know that many of the companies that offer diagnosis also sell CPAPs, and rarely mention oral appliances as an option.

    I just want people who might be just getting diagnosed with OSA (Obstructive Sleep Apnea) that they do have another option, and that they may want to look at it too. From a motorcycling perspective I would much rather carrry my appliance than a CPAP and all it's attachments.

    If you already use a CPAP and are happy with it that's great. If you don't qualify for an appliance, the CPAP is great. It's just I've heard from other "armchair experts" with little to no actual idea what they are talking about in this very thread (have to go way..way back...) dumping on appliances when they clearly don't know what they are talking about and discouraging their use for others.

    I have a coffee mug at work. It's a special mug that I get out and use at specific times, and then I take it into my operatory and drink from it as I get lectured on flouride, cavities, coconut pulling, etc. On the side it says;

    "Please don't confuse your Google Search with my Dental Degree".

    Oddly enough the people it's meant for never seem to pick up on it.
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  7. Baroquenride

    Baroquenride Everyone dies, but not everyone truly lives.

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    So much like in what you wrote, including the coffee cup! :imaposerAll of that totally makes sense including those factors you listed that may or may not be an issue for the appliance to work. Thanks again for taking the time to share with us that there might be another option- one that's lighter, takes up less room, and could potentially be 100% reliable (unlike a battery) 100's of miles away from home!
    :thumbup
    JRWooden likes this.
  8. JRWooden

    JRWooden Homeless motorcycle vagabond ... and ... loving it

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    Thanks ToothDoc .... I like your coffee cup.

    All the factors you listed make great sense .....

    -health of the dentition
    - weight
    - neck size
    - tongue size
    - oral hygiene

    but I'd never really considered tongue size..... except for the guy on KISS..............

    I'm sure bigger tongues make the appliance less likely to work ............... is there some estimating/measuring method for that,
    or is it more of an assessment factor based on professional experience ... as in:

    "Jezzzzzzzzzzzzzz that's a big damn tongue ........... you're probably better off with a CPAP" :fpalm
  9. ToothDocJay

    ToothDocJay Been here awhile

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    You nailed it.....The method I use for evaluating tongue size is "Jezuz Christmas that is a big effing tongue!" And you are right, the larger the tongue, the easier it is for it to fall back when sleeping and block the airway. Neck size and weight generally correlate with this too. So if you are obese, if your neck size is approaching your pant size, and you have a large tongue (or constricted/narrow dental arch) these make an appliance less likely to work. If you have multiple instances of the above you are even less likely.

    As an example, I'm overweight (say 30 pounds) but not obese, and my neck size is 17.5 inches. My tongue is not exceptionally large (having seen tens of thousands of them I'm a good judge of that), so I proceeded. Besides, I made it for myself so I didn't have much to loose. Just make sure that the guy doing the evaluation is experienced.


    These appliances work by positioning the jaw forward, thus pulling the tongue forward so it doesn't fall all the way back and contact the soft palate.

    Years ago they used to try surgery, actually cutting off the back of the soft palate in an effort to open the airway. That was not fun and had too many adverse consequences.
    Just in case you didn't know, CPAP works by basically blowing air down the back of the throat and keeping the airway patient. The early models were Darth Vader like masks, were noisy and not terribly portable. They have come a long way since.

    FYI I want to thank you for your considered and reasonable responses to my posts. My sole intent was, and still is, to inform. It's a lot better than the response I got from my earlier posts in this same thread.
    Charleetho likes this.
  10. Boatman

    Boatman Membership has it's privileges ;-) Supporter

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    I'm over a month into using the CPAP and feel the same way. I feel worse now than before (I had no complaints before). I was averaging over 7 hours of sleep before and now it's about 4.5. Been through 7 different masks too. Would love if the dental appliance works and would gladly pay out of pocket.

    I'll be asking my dentist tomorrow about this.
  11. Bigbob1

    Bigbob1 Rain Rider Supporter

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    I have been using an A-Pap for 6 years and it has worked well for me. My wife tried the dental appliance and it worked for her but after a few months of having a sore jaw/teeth she stopped using it and started using the A-Pap. We both sleep well and get 6-7 hours of sound sleep at home.
    When moto-camping our units run on 12 volts. When on our Wings pulling my RAH camper I built a battery box in the camper with two 22AH AGM batterys. It powers the c-paps and charges phones/computers/lights for several days. This set up charges from my Wing while driving.
    When we camp with our 650's or leave the camper home we power them off our bike battery's. We use a battery tender 12 foot extension that I put a cigarette lighter plug on the end. We turn off the hose heat and get a normal night sleep. So far the bikes always start in the morning. I do carry a small jumpstarter just in case.
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  12. JRWooden

    JRWooden Homeless motorcycle vagabond ... and ... loving it

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    Thanks Doc!

    I talked to my dentist and while he has experience with them he was not a big advocate as he said many people found them uncomfortable and stopped using them ... just like CPAPs :imaposer

    I had the "injection snorplasty" done some years back ... expensive, very painful, didn't work, made it easy for me to aspirate beverages...
    other than that it was freak'n perfect.

    I'd love to experiment with an appliance, but here in the USA with my health coverage anyway ...
    it's a damned expensive experiment.
    I don't score high on any of the adverse factors, so I'll have a chat with my dentist again on it soon..................

    It's nice to have a professional on board! :beer
  13. Charleetho

    Charleetho Mr. Zoom Zoom

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    My dentist does not make these appliances. I went to a dentists with years of experience in making these.
    I don't know what it costs as my medical insurance paid for it and I never saw the bill. I think I heard something like $1,000. I was told keep it out of reach of the dog as dogs like to chew nightguards.

    The CPAP I was using sent out a cellular signal to some monitoring place. If I didn't use it at least 50% of the time insurance wouldnt pay for it. They could tell if it was just running vs actually being attached to my face.
    It also had some memory card in it that I had to bring to the CPAP supplier to download info off of. They knew everything about its use. Quite the hassle.
  14. FredRydr

    FredRydr Danger: Keep Back 300 Ft.

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    CPAP.com sends a blizzard of email, but the latest caught my eye with a link to https://www.cpap.com/blog/cpap-camping/ Note the comment that if the vehicle's battery is the power source, some CPAPs require "pure sine wave" DC to AC inverters to avoid damage to the CPAPs.
  15. GHanson

    GHanson Been here awhile

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    That's what makes the Phillips Respironics, and now the Breas Z2, machines a pleasure to use. They're not finicky about power sources.
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  16. Yakima

    Yakima NC 700

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    Regarding dental devices.
    If your apnea is caused only by mouth/sinus/throat goings on, i.e it's only physiological, an appliance may work and work well. YMMV
    Some of us can't do anything halfway, and our apnea has two causes: physiological (breathing plumbing is the problem) AND neurological -- my brain is sending the wrong signals to whatever circuits are involved in apnea/breathing. Ergo: dental appliance won't make any difference.
    As with many things, many medical conditions, beware oversimplifying. Beware "One size fits all."
    Lots of good ideas here; I'm moving forward with wiring an auxiliary battery and VSR for charging, then using a voltage converter to run my Resmed cpap. Complicated. Can't afford a second cpap; can afford what I'm wring up.
    Bigbob1 likes this.
  17. GotMojo

    GotMojo Been here awhile

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    Buy a used one. I'm pretty sure you can get a decent one for less than whatever it is you're planning to Mcguyver up. Intellipap models run straight off of 12V. I've picked up a few for $100 that are in pristine condition. They're only slightly larger than the 'travel' models.
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  18. stoney4vida

    stoney4vida Semper Fidelis

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    I run my Phillips Respironic right off my DR 650 and Harley battery. I don't use humidifier when camping. Never have any problems .
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  19. Jollyrogers

    Jollyrogers Long timer

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    I was diagnosed with SA, and offered a choice of the dental appliance or a CPAP. I didn’t want to wait, as I was so tired, so chose the CPAP. When I manage to use the thing the whole night, It’s great, but a couple times in the last few weeks, it has woken me with hurricane force winds and twice I’ve found it taken off and next to bed in the morning.

    Anyways, I camp off a WR250R and a Harley, depending on type of riding, and remotely camp with a truck camper a lot of times. I’ve started looking for options for a travel setup. My current machine will run off DC, but I need something smaller especially for the WR. My caregiver said they’d provide the prescription so I can purchase one, or provide the batt packs and water tank plate to make mine smaller, but still not small enough for the WR. The other option is go without it for a few nights I guess.

    Is the Z2 a good option? I need to read through the thread I guess... subscribed.
  20. GHanson

    GHanson Been here awhile

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    I've used mine for three nights, one night battery-powered. Seems to work as well as my other machines. I can now fit everything -- Z2, hose, power supply, Airfit P10, HME, tie wraps and other hose management stuff -- into a bag that's about the size of the PR System one machine (sans humidifier) I've used for traveling since starting all this fun. Can't emphasize enough the importance of the shit-in-one-bag factor to me. It's now a grab-and-go proposition. Makes life easier and dealing with the sleep problem less of a hassle. As I mentioned earlier, the first PAP machine I ever saw had the handling characteristics of a small anvil; we've come a long way, baby.
    Timmer and Jollyrogers like this.