[Crashed] Motorport Kevlar Mesh Pant and Stretch Jacket

Discussion in 'Equipment' started by stupidfacebutternuts, Sep 6, 2018.

  1. Trailrider200

    Trailrider200 Long timer

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    I suggest u look into this. for example JASO does not test any motor oil. They put out the spec and collect fees and rely on the manufacturer to be honest and make their oil to meet the Spec. I surmise the same is going on with the CE specs.
    And I always like how yrs ago a motorcycle magazine testing helmets proved that the Snell requires of the time actually provide less protection than the DOT standard. Snell a yr or two later changed their standards to make the helmets safer. I surmise the same might be going on with the CE std. somebody is making money with this std. Motoport has a track record of 20+yrs of their gear and armor being in crashes and providing great protection. Their gear is actually based on a lot of testing which was done decades ago. It's on their site.
  2. Wayne at Motoport

    Wayne at Motoport Been here awhile

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    It is very difficult to be brief in my response. Pages can be written on each topic. I'll try to make this as simple as possible.

    If you had a chance to read the link posted previously: https://www.motoport.com/motoport-an-evolution/ This link starts off:
    It is important to study riding gear that has been crashed. Impact location as well as tear/abrasion/seam strength of the apparel can be seen. When seams fail it is necessary to improve the seam strength. When holes are worn through it is necessary to improve the abrasion strength of the material. When similar abrasion and impact areas become common after studying thousands of crashed suits those are the areas that should have armor for impact protection. Safety improvements to Motoport’s apparel were made primarily from the gear failures witnessed from 1965, when Motoport started operation, up until 1988. Note: Motoport USA averages approximately 5 returned suits each week that have been crashed. Many of the suits have been crashed multiple times. We continue studying and improving our apparel even today.

    But what about the riders that crashed? What type of injuries did the riders experience? What parts of the body sustained the injuries? When a rider crashes, usually only the friends or immediate family know of the injuries or the details of the tumble. In the majority of cases, even the apparel that was worn is thrown away and not studied. Studying suits, testing materials are all important. Studying the injuries the rider sustains is, by far, the most important factor in designing protective motorcycle apparel.

    When Motoport sent one of our Air Mesh Jacket to Satra for EN-Certification, we found all of the above listed information lacking. We also found that the testing on motorcycle apparel was primitive, with many important protective factors completely missing. The machines used for testing abrasion, impact etc.., didn't even closely simulate crashing a motorcycle. I've spoke with the Engineers at Satra trying to explain the problems with the EN Certification. It seems that Satra has improved over the years, but still the testing Motoport has conducted even over 30 years ago is far more accurate and complete.

    I can go on but it was obvious to me and this can be explained with many pages of examples, the EN Certifications were approving motorcycle apparel that was not protective. Here is an easy way to explain: Do you think the Aldi suit would be allowed to use for road racing? No, it would not even come close to passing. Motoport's Kevlar blended suits are approved for road racing. The inspectors at a road race would laugh if you tried to race in the Aldi suit and here are just some of the reasons:

    1. It is difficult to find info on the Aldi suit, but it appears that is is made with 600 Denier Polyester. Did you see this link posted about the tear abrasion strengths of different materials used for motorcycle apparel?
    https://www.motoport.com/the-save-your-hide-guide/

    Polyester is a cheap fabric, cost around $3.00 per yard, that will decompose quickly when used for motorcycle apparel. Cordura that is nylon, cost around $6.00 per yard and has from 30 to 60% more tear/abrasion strength as compared to Polyester. Cordura averages around double the price of Polyester. Motoport currently has over 300 police departments in the USA and Canada that wear our gear. These motor police can average 10 to 12 hours a day on the motorcycle 5 days a week. Just after 3 to 6 months of this type of wear with a Polyester jacket/pant, it will be decomposed and have no tear/abrasion strength.
    The Polyester that Aldi uses in Polyurethane, "Plastic Coated" on the inside face fabric. When sliding on the asphalt, heat is generated instantly and this plastic coating becomes liquid and can absorb into the skin. In some cases after getting many needle shots to help alleviate the pain, they can scrub out some of this plastic from the skin. I've experience this and it was one of the most painful experiences in my life. When they cannot scrub any more of the plastic out of the skin it will require skin grafting to fix.

    It appears that with multiple layers of 600 Denier Polyester, Aldi will pass the CE, EN abrasion certification. These extra layers sewn on the shoulders/elbow forearms can cause the rider to tumble, in a crash. It will also make the suit stiff/heavy and not breathe properly. Only what CE certifies as the high impact areas need proper abrasion strength, so many parts of the suit by CE standards do not need high abrasion strength. So when you crash make sure you land on the areas the CE claims should be high abrasion areas.

    2. We were the first company in the history of the EN Certification that sent chest armor that comes standard with Motoport's apparel. Satra asked me: "What do we do with this chest armor?" The Aldi suit has no chest armor. If again you were to read the above link, Motoport an Evolution you would see how we developed the armor, coverage of armor along with the composition of armor. The Aldi suit is not protective, because the endangered areas of the body are not covered properly.

    3. I cannot find any information on the seam strength of the Aldi suit. The only way I can see that the seam strength passes the CE/EN Certification is the seams are heat sealed on the inside. This is mandatory for the suit to be Waterproof.

    4. Some riders will be lucky, but a large majority will not fit into a Aldi jacket/pant. This apparel is all made in what they consider to be standard sizes. Motorcycle apparel will not be protective if the suit doesn't fit properly.

    Does CE or EN test when sliding on the asphalt causes the seam tape to melt and then cause the seam to fail?
    Does the CE or EN test or have any history on armor staying in place in a tumble? Do they have any history of injuries riders sustain along with the locations of the most severe injuries for proper armor placement and coverage? Still after all these years CE and EN is an improper certification for testing armor.
    Does the CE or EN test show how long the gear will last or decompose from UV Rays?
    Does Aldi or CE or EN have any history on the details of the crashed suits that have been approved?
    Does Aldi or CE or EN have any history of the details on the injuries the rider sustains after crashing in the apparel?

    I can go on and on. If I was purchasing a motorcycle suit that claims to be protective, I would need to see a minimum of 100 riders testimonies that crashed wearing the suit. I would want to know how long the suit will hold up. The materials used for construction, the armor used and coverage, seam strength, options, colors, how the suit will fit etc... are all important.

    Some riders will tell me that the Aldi suit is all the protection they want. Cordura is stronger than Polyester. I've seen many high end Cordura motorcycle suits completely fail at low speeds. In fact I've seen just about every major textile brand completely fail at low speeds. If you read the links posted these failures are easy to understand.

    After Motoport's customers wear our gear for a few months, the most common response we hear: "I have a closet full of motorcycle apparel that will never be worn again. I wish your gear was the first thing I purchased." You made the comment: " I've spent around $900.00 for three suits". Now that you live in Asia, how can you wear the Aldi. It would be far to hot to wear the plastic coated 600 Denier Polyester Aldi suit in temperatures over 80F. So now you need to spend more money on two more suits for you and your girl. If just two sets of gear were purchased from Motoport, it will work in hot/cold/wet weather, it will protect you better than any other motorcycle gear made, it will last for many years and have the best guarantee on the planet.

    If the Aldi suit was free, I still wouldn't wear it or even give it to a friend.
    ShineySideUp and Trailrider200 like this.
  3. ukAdventurer

    ukAdventurer Been here awhile

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    E5ABF79D-B06C-457B-9F61-E583CD07AAAB.jpeg Thanks for your response Wayne. You’re right about some things but other things not so much because it’s hard to get info on the Aldi gear. They don’t advertise, they don’t boast, their sales are very stealthy indeed but they have impressed motorcycle publications and cost conscious bikers. So I’ll clear the things up that you couldn’t possibly know because I have the Aldi gear and I’m happy with it.

    The Aldi “Crane” suit is made of 4 layers, none of which are polyurethane coated. There’s the 100% polyamide outer in most zones (1, 2 and maybe 3, but not 4.) It’s an extremely heavy denier but I can’t tell by looking what denier without anything to compare it to. Then there’s the membrane layer which is taped (to make the garment windproof/waterproof), then a sort of knitted intermediate layer, then a mesh lining. The low risk zones (3 or 4) have a high denier but uncoated polyester, I’d say.

    However they did it, they achieved >13 seconds on the Cambridge impact abrasion test in all zones. That’s not just a pass, that’s a pass of 2x to 10x better than the level 2 requirement! We’ve worn the suits on tours in Mongolia and it is waterproof, windproof and warm. We haven’t worn it in the Gobi desert yet. Summer is short in Mongolia, so it’s the cold in the winter and rain in the summer which are a bigger concern. The suit is actually more comfortable than I expected and not as stiff as you’d think. There are vents zippers front and back but I’ve yet to try them.

    You mentioned the armour. Well, you make a great point. The armour was a bit disappointing: ONLY level 2 back armour, level 1 at the joints. No chest armour. So I actually don’t use it but my girlfriend does. I bought a Knox action under shirt which has Knox micro-lock CE L2 at all impact points and I added a chest protector for a total of $180. The Aldi jacket with out armour weighs 2.5kg which is a bit less than my Hein Gericke cowhide leather jacket without its armour.

    To be fair most companies do not give you a full set of CE L2 armour included with their jackets and pants. Certainly not for $100, so what Aldi gives is criminally good. Almost everybody sells back protectors and chest protectors as options. Except maybe you and Klim for 6x the price.

    I think the point you make about CE testing is silly. They set minimum standards at several levels and manufacturers are welcome to EXCEED those standards and brag about it! As Aldi did. As Forcefield does with their armour, etc. If you don’t like Cambridge abrasion testing, then perhaps you’ll be happy they use Darmstadt for the new standard. But, from what I’ve heard it’s easier to pass for PPE manufacturers, but unfortunately has no bragging rights because it’s pass/fail only. Shame. Luckily manufacturer can still mention (brag) about the old test for marketing purposes.

    Finally, I should clarify that $900 for my 3 “outfits” included helmets, boots and 2 pairs of gloves (winter and summer ones). The 3 “suits” I mentioned were only $450 total. Aldi suit, Teknic 2 piece leather, Hein Gericke jacket and Bull-it jeans plus Knox action under armour shirt. So I think I’ve got all the seasons and styles covered.
  4. ukAdventurer

    ukAdventurer Been here awhile

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    As a general rule, I trust CE specs because they provide a minimum standard to pass. PPE must be tested by an independent lab and there are many, not just Satra. PPE must be certified before going on sale. Afterwards, I believe the gear can be spot checked and there are legal penalties for falsifying CE certification.

    Is it a perfect system? Is it fraud proof? No and no. Nothing is. Chinese importers sell mislabeled stuff on the internet with impunity. They are virtually untouchable by European and US laws.

    However, I trust CE certification far more than profit driven PPE manufacturers who all claim to sell “the best gear in the world” but who also mostly do NOT show the test results from independent labs and who do NOT get their products certified to even the most basic standards.

    If they want to boast about having the best gear then get it certified and THEN show how well they EXCEEDED those tests. Aldi does it, Forcefield does it, most riding jeans manufacturers do it. Most are certified and publish their results.
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  5. ukAdventurer

    ukAdventurer Been here awhile

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    I don’t know how to calculate denier but maybe looking at the weave with reference (millimeters) is useful.

    All this being said. I generally trust leather more than any textile. This is the very hefty polyamide in the main crash zones on the Aldi/Crane jacket and pants. FF6E8E43-4F24-4DE7-9068-0B35C1409679.jpeg
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  6. Wayne at Motoport

    Wayne at Motoport Been here awhile

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    You should also clarify what gear that you wear was purchase used to get this $450 cost. You could have purchased two used Motoport USA suits for around the same price and now have true protective gear that can be worn in hot/cold/wet weather.
  7. ukAdventurer

    ukAdventurer Been here awhile

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    Fair enough, you asked what I bought for ~$450:

    Teknic leather 2 piece suit $57 (used - 1.4-1.6 mm cowhide, double at slide zones)
    Hein Gericke leather jacket $90 (used - 1.2mm cowhide)
    Aldi Crane textile 2 piece suit $85 (used but barely)
    Knox action armored shirt $150 (new)
    Cyclists tights with armour pockets added ($10)
    Bull-it SR6 jeans $65 (new)
    Total $457

    I already had goretex rain wear so didn’t need a rain suit.

    Frankly, of all the gear I bought, I’d most like to crash in the Teknic leather suit with the Knox armored shirt underneath with all CE level 2. It would most likely be undamaged or slightly scuffed. The second choice would be the Aldi suit, mainly because it would probably offer similar protection but might be damaged and need repairs. The other great thing with the leather jackets and the jeans is that you can wear them as fashion items and not look weird. I just wouldn’t need to wear the armored underclothes.

    Furthermore, I didn’t say I didn’t like Motoport stuff. I think it’s great for rich Americans. When I was well-off and lived there in SoCal, I bought one of the Kevlar air-mesh jackets new. Now I’m poorer but wiser, I realized price does not equal safety. Price equals design features and branding. Aldi has proved time and time again that they can make protective gear as well as anybody else (or better) for a fraction of the price. I’ll never convince you otherwise and you’ll never convince me otherwise. Aldi as a brand is a joke (similar to Walmart in the USA) and people who love Klim wouldn’t lower themselves to buy from such a joke brand. If you can look past brand snobbery, you’ll see that you don’t need to spend $600-$1500 just for a jacket that has NOT even passed the most basic of CE PPE tests. Aldi Crane passed the most rigorous of CE tests 13595 level 2 which only leather could before and a couple of obscure European textiles brands (Halversons and some Italian brand I can’t remember but very pricey). Now, the standard is easier to pass prEN17092 a lot of textiles can only achieve level A or AA. Leathers are usually level AAA. If Aldi releases their textiles again this summer, I’d expect them to pass at AAA level.

    You keep maligning CE PPE tests because you don’t agree with them. That’s fine, it’s your prerogative, but it means you can’t legally sell your gear in Europe, which in total has far more motorcyclists than the USA. So maybe you need to put your pride aside and get your gear certified.
  8. ukAdventurer

    ukAdventurer Been here awhile

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    Furthermore, your points about plastic are ludicrous and incorrect. If “plastic” means anything made of nylon or polyester or ePTFE membrane, then YES, every item of motorcycle clothing has plastic in it, including yours. Even keprotec has some portion of nylon, elastane (lycra), bonded nylon stitching or some blend. Plastic is such a generic term as to be useless in terms of PPE.

    Yes, we agree that polyurethane is a bad idea on PPE next to the skin but with layering of abrasion resistant materials between the outer and inner layers, the melting risk is mitigated. Aldi uses something like what Halvarssons hi-art had. It’s a knitted fabric that creates an air gap to mitigate heat transfer and reduce friction on the outer through layering. That’s why it’s ok to have a polyester base layer (slip liner) or Coolmax type garment next to the skin. With a good abrasion resistant layer (high denier nylon, Cordura, knitted kevlar, dyneema, knitted LC polymer, etc) the extreme heat of a slide won’t get close to the skin. Well, at least no enough to melt polyester.

    I think the only way to prove your gear is fit for purpose is to sell it in Europe and certify it to EN17092 at level AAA. Let’s see if you do that.
  9. yellowcarbon

    yellowcarbon Been here awhile

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    Let's keep in mind, the Kevlar material is not magic. It will break and wear through if exposed to enough damage. But having said that, I do believe the Kevlar mesh is vastly superior to any other mesh gear when it comes to abrasion resistance. It is the gear I choose to wear.

    I have Motoport Kevlar pants that are 7 years old and I bought them used. Other than being dingy, that are still good to go. The liner is frayed/pilled from where the velcro from my boots hit it, but other wise it is in excellent shape, particularly for the age. I have never had gear hold up so well. When you spread the cost over a decade, it is down right cheap. I learned after buying cheap gear for years when I first started riding, that cheap gear wears out quickly when you put the miles on. After I got my first Vanson, not only was it super thick and protective, it was extremely durable.

    But more important than abrasion resistance for me is the armor coverage. Impact damage is what causes death and long term injury. Yes, road rash sucks and sucks bad. But I don't even remember where I got road rash in my last serious crash, which was about 15 years ago (30-35 low side). I do, however, still feel the pain in my left shoulder when I do much manual work or lifting above my head.

    Chest armor comes standard on the Motoport gear. I didn't even think about it before I got my first Motoport jacket, now I won't ride without some form of chest protection. Nor did I consider tail bone, thigh, or shin armor, all of which you can get on a Motoport. The elbow armor piece is bigger than some back pads on cheaper jackets. Armor coverage is something I don't hear people mention when talking about Motoport, which I believe is more important than the abrasion protection.


    Comparing used prices are a little unfair. I've bought Motoport used for pennies on the dollar. Here is a list:

    Motoport Kevlar stretch gloves: $25 shipped in like new condition
    Motoport Kevlar stretch pants: $100 off of Craigslist. Too bad it was 2 sizes too small for me.
    Motoport Hong Kong police jacket: $145 shipped. It is a little faded and a 1/2 size too small.

    Having said that, I am 6'3" and 300# after a diet. I'm built like an NFL lineman, no really, my brother is an ex NFL lineman and we have the same build. So finding gear in my size is rare. I do have or have had about a dozen Motoport jackets & pants. On average I pay between $200-$350 per piece. Everything is bought used and on the cheap. Motoport gear is extremely durable, so I don't hesitate to buy used.
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  10. yellowcarbon

    yellowcarbon Been here awhile

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    I also want to state that I respect every ones opinion and am happy that we get to discuss the stuff we love. I really should be doing work right now, but talking bikes & gear is much more entertaining.

    CE certification doesn't mean much to many in the USA. Although it is gaining in popularity, especially by those that buy European gear. Less so for those of us that like the older US brands. I don't believe Vanson leather jackets are CE certified either, but they are definitely a gold standard on production leathers. My first Vanson competition weight jacket took a good 5 years to break in. I will yield and state the Vanson's armor is CE certified, but I believe they buy it from a sub-contractor, if I were to guess.

    I'm not saying CE cert is bad. I even agree with you that it is a good way to have gear independently inspected/tested. But it really gives you a rough picture of the durability. Crash result is what really tells us a little more. I realize this thread was started by somebody that had less than stellar results in a crash with their gear. Again, Kevlar is not magic and will eventually fail when pushed too far. But I do believe, from experience and handling different pieces of gear, that Motoport is top rate. I will also state I have seen CE cert on gear I have bought (Kevlar lined jeans & armor), that I don't put much confidence in. Although Kevlar lined jeans do serve a purpose, for me it allows me to ride my bike to business meetings at job sites. I can't wear my Motoport over pants there.

    Motoport, Vanson, Aerostich pre-date CE certification, particularly for US buyers that aren't under the CE restrictions of Europe. These brands have earned their reputation and lasted in the face of $100 Joe Rocket mesh jackets. I did not even hear about CE cert 20 years ago when I started riding, and I read everything back then (forums, magazines, etc.). I do imagine if they were upstart companies now, they may feel the need to have it done. But considering a large percentage of Motoport's gear is for US law enforcement, it really wouldn't serve them. They are a word of mouth company. I have never seen a Motoport advertisement. I'm glad to not pay for it and am happy my money is paid to material, labor and profit. I bought the cheap stuff when I first started riding: AGV, TourMaster, Joe Rocket, etc. Having been around the block with gear a few times, I like the higher end stuff.

    I also very much respect that the owner of Motoport will come hear and enter in to dialog with us. I know if I owned a manufacturing company, I would most likely avoid forums because of the hassle & time it can cause. He has definitely lost some business because of it, but he sticks to his convictions. I love his gear and will support it with my money. Even it it is on the secondary market. Would somebody go on a diet and sell me their Motoport stretch Kevlar hoodie for 40% of new with quad armor upgrade please.
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  11. ukAdventurer

    ukAdventurer Been here awhile

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    I like your attitude yellowcarbon. As a previous owner of Motoport, I also had faith in their gear back then, I’d also never heard of CE testing back then either. Now it’s 12 years since I bought my kevlar mesh jacket and I think I’m better educated. Also, CE certification, although for only required in the EU, is highly respected around the world. Their helmet standard is accepted in 50+ countries. The USA is far behind on certification. DOT is a joke for helmets. So I think US bikers, at least the safety conscious ones, do pay attention to CE certification, SHARP helmet tests, etc. because the USA has nothing comparable for PPE.

    I also agree that kevlar can be great as a blend, or in combination with other materials. Racing suits aren’t made of kevlar but they sure are reinforced in some areas with it. My bull-it jeans use Covec which is a liquid crystal polymer that has a similar function to kevlar but somewhat different properties. It’s used in racing as an FIM under suit.

    Finally, I agree on the body armour being critical which is why I wear CE level 2 head to toe, including a chest protector. I use a mix of Knox microlok and Forcefield Isolator 2 visco-elastic parts. All give extra coverage (size B) than is required.

    The thing is I don’t trust companies to “save my hide” without independent verification or certification. That’s what almost all USA based companies lack. Call me an untrusting person but I think it’s just smart vs gullible.

    For summer use, I’d be happy to buy a USED Motoport air mesh jacket for my rides in the Gobi desert, IF I could get one for around $100 and my size. In the meantime, I’ll have to make do with perforated cowhide.
  12. Tripped1

    Tripped1 Smoove, Smoove like velvet.

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    So this is what a British University had to say about SHARP a while back, I don't know if the certification has changed or not. I don't track Britsh certifications, there is no need.

    https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/Docume...ftheSHARPmotorcyclehelmetratingsweb600150.pdf
  13. ukAdventurer

    ukAdventurer Been here awhile

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  14. Tripped1

    Tripped1 Smoove, Smoove like velvet.

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  15. ukAdventurer

    ukAdventurer Been here awhile

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    DB76B498-514B-479D-887D-1E56D17BDA82.png My main criticism with Sharp is that they don’t really test very many helmets and a lot of their tested helmets are already discontinued, so if I find a helmet that scores well, it’s quite probably not available any more :(

    I think their testing methodology is really good, unless somebody comes up with something better. Certainly some manufacturers don’t like it because it makes them look bad. One thing that stands out a lot is many lids have poor performance on the sides which is bad news because that’s where a lot of impacts occur. Far more than on the crown, for example. So it seems that many manufacturers skimp on EPS on the sides to improve streamlining or style or to put headphones.
    , etc
  16. Tripped1

    Tripped1 Smoove, Smoove like velvet.

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    One thing that I really like about my Arai, the headphone pockets are in the cheek pads, not the fom. Aria is also classically anal about anything that messes with the shell/foam integrity, hence the visor vents. Totally uncompromising ...in a totally Japanese fashion.
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  17. ukAdventurer

    ukAdventurer Been here awhile

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    A little off topic but I had an Arai too way back when I was wealthy. They make quality lids, for sure. However, since I’m quite poor now I have to look for low cost, high safety gear in all segments. I’ve had a few Bell helmets since the Bell Star. Now I’m wearing a Bell Mx9 adventure MIPS. I really think the oblique impact is under tested and the resultant rotational forces on the brain. Sharp tests for something like that.
  18. Tripped1

    Tripped1 Smoove, Smoove like velvet.

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    I actually have a Bell star carbon which I hate. It does literally nothing well except be loud, and I mean really loud. So while the MIPS technology is interesting, I'd try 6D first, thoughI am pretty sure they won't fit me round oval head.
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  19. Bill 310

    Bill 310 Poser Emeritus Super Supporter

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    I just had a 41 mph get off (radar gun tracked) at an advanced riding school. High speed emergency braking on old Kawi KZ 1000 (non abs ) cop bikes

    I have over 500K on ABS bike and had completed this motor officer type course before. My crash was rider error driven and I broke a bone in my wrist ( cheap plastic wrist watch was a point of impact and it was worn under my Helimot glove)

    I am a relaxed falling person from years of skiing but that didn't matter because as soon as I locked the front wheel, the front wheel tucked in to the right and I was down. I never had time to release and re apply.

    Ironically the Instructor had commented earlier on my "excellent" braking skills as an ABS only bike rider. :imaposer

    I was in an older (10 years) moto port kevlar suit.(I have two moto port suits) I was literally catapulted off the bike landed on my chest and tumbled and tumbled then slide for about 40 feet. I also had bruises on my left finger tips . The bike slid about 100 feet.

    Having an eyewitness (instructor with radar gun) standing watching this cluster F unfold gives me more insight into my crash.

    My suit will go back to moto port for a tune up ( a month more until my cast comes off)

    There are some small abrasions on the suit and I was already planning to send it back for a few minor wear repairs after the course so it will get a full once over.

    My brand new Arai helmet ( 3 days) has some pretty good gouges in it (sending it back for an examination) . My Helimot gloves (Thanks Helmut) have some road abrasions and my Daytona boots have scuff marks.

    So... I commute in a Darien jacket and pants. I went down at commuting speeds landing on my chest an area the Darien product offers no impact protection. I will be retiring my Darien gear.
  20. Steve G.

    Steve G. Long timer Supporter

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    West is the Best

    Geez Bill, that’s a bit of a bugger up on 1/2 your riding year isn’t it. Shame.
    Interesting thought process re: the Darien. I just bought a new BMW Enduroguard, and thought it was perhaps too overbuilt, and passing too over the top. I’m rethinking this considering your move with your Darien.
    I’ve got a Motoport Ultra 1000 gortex as well, a total tank as well.