[Crashed] Motorport Kevlar Mesh Pant and Stretch Jacket

Discussion in 'Equipment' started by stupidfacebutternuts, Sep 6, 2018.

  1. Bill 310

    Bill 310 Poser Emeritus Super Supporter

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    Steve, the chest and tailbone armor was a big factor in my decision to buy moto port gear
    I have spent a lot of money on gear but it has paid off twice now. years ago I was hit by another rider at laguna seca at a riding school and went for a long butt slide in a roadcrafter that was was worn into the 2nd level of material by the time i stopped sliding.

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  2. MLS2GO

    MLS2GO Adventurer Supporter

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    The esteemed Mr. Bill. Your only 2 bad crashes came while training? You buried the lede my friend, you buried the lede.
    Sorry to hear, mend well.
  3. Bill 310

    Bill 310 Poser Emeritus Super Supporter

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    Well if you really want me to finish burying the lede i did forget to mention that while riding out to the class that morning the ABS failure light came on my K1200 GT.

    It appears that based on the mechanical history of this MC that I will be once again buying more used parts to keep my Beast of Financial Burden Rolling down the Highway even though Riding School is Out for Summer (note 3 rock songs references in one sentence).

    I should have bought the 08 RT and not the 08 GT. That was the real accident
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  4. Tripped1

    Tripped1 Smoove, Smoove like velvet.

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    That is the beauty of the Darian, you can just as easily pull out the stock armor and wear a motocross style compression set under it.
  5. Bill 310

    Bill 310 Poser Emeritus Super Supporter

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    Yeah, if they made a compression set in Men's 58-60 double tall that would be a good solution.

  6. Tripped1

    Tripped1 Smoove, Smoove like velvet.

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    Ugh, you didn't mention you were a tree :lol3
  7. ukAdventurer

    ukAdventurer Been here awhile

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    I’m not sure which model you owned but The whole recent Bell Star range seems to do very well on safety - 5 stars on Sharp -, not sure about noise. I’d be happy to own one. We should be wearing ear plugs anyway, right? 5FE97481-58C7-4FC6-A692-20EFB8554551.png
  8. Tripped1

    Tripped1 Smoove, Smoove like velvet.

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    2013ish vintage.

    And I care little about its star rating. The helmet does nothing as well as my schuberths or arai offerings
  9. Wayne at Motoport

    Wayne at Motoport Been here awhile

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    I post links to read and this is done to make replies shorter. https://www.motoport.com/motoport-an-evolution/ If you read this link and then spend some time looking into the CE and EN Testing it will be easy to understand that Motoport USA has far more accurate/in depth testing methods. Look at the machines Motoport used and this is going back 33 years ago. The abrasion machine we use for testing is far better and more accurate than the current Cambridge and Darmstadt abrasion machines used today. Seam strength/impact is also studied better. Far more money was spent by Motoport and the German government for testing as compared to CE and EN. Motoport has a much longer history of studying crashes, far more crashes studied along with complete evaluations of riders injuries after crashes and this is not part of CE or EN Certifications. Motoport USA not only builds motorcycle apparel that passes and exceeds the CE and EN Testing, our apparel is also approved for road racing. Note: All of our testing for impact/abrasion/tear strength/seam strength was completed by non biased independent companies all over the world. Road Racing gear will fail in many tumbles, so why would you want to wear any apparel not approved for road racing. Again the Aldi suit cannot be used for racing. Anything made with plastic, "Polyurethane", coated Polyester would be dangerous on a road racing course. Do you think it would be safe on the street? Note: To be clear Polyurethane is a plastic film applied to the inside face fabric on synthetic motorcycle apparel. This film is not part of the synthetic material it is a separate film added after the material is woven. If the Aldi suit wasn't plastic coated it would be pointed out on all the details of the gear. Special weaves, special stitching must be used so the material will not fray when worn, when not coated with Polyurethane. This plastic film can absorb into the skin in many cases even when the outer layer of the suit material is still intact.

    Again if you were to read this link I posted: https://www.motoport.com/quad-armor/ A better understanding of armor and protection can be learned. In 2006 Motoport was required by the Chinese government to comply with the EN Certification. This EN Certification was required for the motorcycle police in Hong Kong to purchase and wear our gear. Motoport USA was EN 13595 Certified in 2006. Motoport USA paid Satra around $33,000 to be EN Certified. Note: We passed the Cambridge and Darmstadt abrasion testing. Again lack of knowledge of EN causes misguided conclusions. Satra that designs and completes the EN Certification is a private "PROFIT" driven company. This is pointed out in the above link. Motoport's EN Certification is still valid today and we can sell protective gear in Europe or in any other country. Do I feel that Motoport USA or our customers have any benefit from this EN Certification? No, is was a complete waste of money. If some riders here think it is important to be CE or EN Certified after reading the links I provided, they are misguided. Spend some time and look into these CE and EN Certifications. Spend some time and read about all the jackets/pants and one piece suits manufactured here in house in the USA that Motoport sells. Every single one would be approved for road racing and exceed all of CE or EN Certifications. I make the claim: "Motoport USA manufactures the best gear in the world". This claim is a fact. We provide better impact protection that covers more of the body. We provide higher abrasion/tear/seam strength. Our gear works great in cold/hot/rain. We build custom to fit any body in many different options, styles and colors. We make fashionable gear that is comfortable to wear. We can alter or repair all of our gear. We provide a far longer lasting garment. We also back up all our claims with the best guarantee in the world.

    The more you know the better it gets.
  10. ukAdventurer

    ukAdventurer Been here awhile

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    Don’t forget, Wayne, that I was a customer back in 2007, so I read all of your website back then. I’ve read your links again. It’s an interesting mix of wisdom, hyperbole and unsubstantiated claims. Hey, maybe I’d do the same as a manufacturer of motorcycle PPE in the USA because it seems like anyone can claim anything without consequences.

    However, I’m a skeptic. Even as a kid I read “Which?” eagerly. It’s the UK’s version of “consumer reports”. So when I moved to the USA, I became a subscriber to Consumer Reports for many, many years. What do you think that taught me? It’s pretty obvious any consumer can not and should not believe the claims of manufacturers without unbiased testing and verification. Manufacturers hate CR and Which? (Unless they are a Best Buy) because the manufacturers are called out on their marketing claims. Likewise, you seem to hate CE certification generally and Satra specifically. I agree they are not perfect but in the absence of anything else, riders have little else to go on. We can’t test a manufacturers claim easily without destructive testing and then it’s too late to realize the manufacturer’s marketing claims were false.

    Why doesn’t the USA do some independent testing? It seems like motorcycle magazines are just shills for the industry and don’t dare criticize lest they lose advertising, sponsorship or free stuff.

    Why is Europe the only zone doing anything for motorcyclists PPE gear beyond helmets?

    Well, there is an effort by Australia but it’s very limited but it’s a good start:

    https://www.motocap.com.au/

    Lo and behold they are using CE testing but in their own labs! That testing protocol must not be the crap you claim it is after all.
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  11. Trailrider200

    Trailrider200 Long timer

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    in the '90s there were a few material tests done by motorcycle magazines. every time the top three materials were always competition grade leather, kevlar and cordura 1000 and/or ballistic cordura 1050.
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  12. hamiamham

    hamiamham Been here awhile

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    this is going to seem off topic but bear with me. I have been doing some research on kitchen gloves that are cut-resistant and discovered they are all rated by ANSI; American National Standards Institute. For cut resistance they rank materials anywhere from A1 to A9. They also appear to rank materials for abrasion resistance, puncture resistance, and tear resistance. at least in work gloves the highest ranked materials seem to be kevlar and dyneema. I realize this is not quite the same kind of testing Europe has but at least it would be a start.
    Rockred and ukAdventurer like this.
  13. ukAdventurer

    ukAdventurer Been here awhile

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    In motocap’s test which are based on using the Cambridge abrasion test machine (same as CE EN13595) Which is considered a tough test, the motorcycle leather jackets and pants did well for abrasion, typically exceeding 10 seconds (at which point it stopped) whereas kevlar didn’t do so well consistently. The problem is saying something is kevlar is like saying something is leather. There are many types of “Kevlar”, especially the way it is woven. Nylon and polyester did very poorly on most of the textiles. Some kevlar did poorly, a couple of kevlar jackets and pants did ok but not really close to leather.

    Most shockingly, one pair of bull-it jeans which I own (but not that exact model) did quite poorly on abrasion. Draggin’ (Australia) did the best of the kevlar jeans (7.77 seconds) which matches the claim on their website exactly. However, they were still beaten by the rev’it Leather pants which capped out at 10 seconds.

    This pretty much confirms what I’ve always thought: that cowhide is best on highways but some textiles (mostly but not solely with kevlar, dyneema, Covec etc) will probably be adequate around town.

    I’d love to see motocap test more but it seems they are limited maybe by budget. In the meantime, I’ll stick to CE certified PPE whenever possible. By this summer, all new stuff sold in Europe will have to be fully certified garments. Unless it’s on closeout.
  14. Wayne at Motoport

    Wayne at Motoport Been here awhile

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    I've explained the problems with CE and EN Testing. I'm not going to repeat again so you will understand. I see crashed motorcycle apparel just about every work day. I talk to riders that have crashed almost on a daily basis. I raced motorcycle professionally all over the world for 25 years. My entire life has been based around motorcycles. I've been manufacturing motorcycle apparel now for 33 years. I've seen our gear fail, I've also seen gear all over the world that has failed and have learned how to make improvements. I see riders wearing flip flops, shorts, no gloves and a half helmet. If there was no helmet law here in Calif. they wouldn't be wearing the half helmet. Just last week my brother and I went on a 3000 mile ride into Arizona. Temperatures ranged from 15F to 98F and it rained. My brother's 3 friends were wearing only a helmet, gloves and one a leather jacket another a cheap mesh jacket, another a denim jacket. All of this gear had no armor for impact protection, all of this gear has no tear/abrasion/ seam strength. The age of these guys was 66, 72 and 75. We had to stop every 50 miles or less. They were miserable for most of the ride. If one of them crashed, very good chances of a severe injury. I can't say anything to these guys that would make them change. Even though both my brother and I were comfortable in all the weather, wearing apparel that 67% of the body is covered with the best impact absorbing Quad-Armor in the world, 5 to 10 times more tear strength than the best competition grade leather in the world, with over 2000 pound seam strength. One of the only positive comments from my brothers friends: "Your jackets and pants Reflective really stood out at night and in the rain."

    I currently go all over the USA holding seminars at police motorcycle departments. Motoport USA currently has over 300 police departments that wear Motoport. If I talk to 20 police motors at one of these seminars an average of 4 of these riders want no part of wearing protective gear. No matter what I say or show, they will not change. They will keep wearing cotton/polyester short sleeve shirts and cotton/polyester breech pants. This cotton/polyester apparel has no tear/abrasion strength. Most standard denim has better tear abrasion strength. They don't even wear motorcycle boots, just standard shoes or a hiking shoe. Yet, these motors average 10 to 12 hours a day riding the motorcycle in many times at high speed or in very dangerous situations. I will see these same riders after they have been wearing our apparel a year later. They come up to me, shake my hand and say: "Thanks for making this gear for us. It is more comfortable than the cotton/polyester, works better in hot/cold/wet weather. Two of us crashed with no injuries, one of the guys claimed our gear saved his life!" Without the experience, without the crash, without the police department requiring to wear our gear, some of these motors would still be wearing the cotton/polyester uniform.

    I've learned over the years that some people are stuck in their own ways and will never change. Motoport's main customers have been riders that have either crashed or had a friend that has crashed wearing Motoport. Again, read the thousands of Testimonials on Motoport. Do you think this is hyperbole? Do you think these Testimonials are unsubstantiated claims. Do you think I made up the tear/abrasion/seam strength of our materials? Do you think I'm lying about the tear/abrasion/seam strength of the materials our competitors use to make motorcycle apparel? Maybe if you crashed wearing Motoport's apparel in 2007 you would no longer be skeptical.
  15. Trailrider200

    Trailrider200 Long timer

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    Wayne u can lead a horse to water, well u know the rest.
    I always like posting this get off at 70mph in your gear. wasn't me thank God, but your gear saved his hide and more Thank God.
    https://advrider.com/f/threads/motoport-gear-crash-tested-at-70-mph.507934/
  16. ukAdventurer

    ukAdventurer Been here awhile

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    So requiring independent, scientific unbiased confirmation of a manufacturer’s claims is stupid somehow? Well, I beg to differ and I think most logical thinkers would agree.

    Furthermore, anecdotal reports of having your hide saved by somebody’s gear is not scientific. People fall off at 5mph and lose skin. Others wearing jeans and t-shirts walk away unscathed after a 70mph slide. Check YouTube. Did the t-shirt save their life and skin? It’s science, right?

    No, that’s why anecdotal reports are a bit rubbish in isolation because of the randomness and massive variation of crashes. Science teaches us that we should test in a repeatable, quantifiable method. Can science cover every eventuality? Of course not but it can cover most by combining methodology with statistical analysis.
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  17. Trailrider200

    Trailrider200 Long timer

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  18. ShineySideUp

    ShineySideUp Long timer

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    I wear Terra Adventure boots for dirt and street riding. I was checking my MP rain pants to see if they fit over my Terra's - yup they do - good job MP :D
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  19. ukAdventurer

    ukAdventurer Been here awhile

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    You wanted examples of hype, well thanks for not forcing me to go to your website AGAIN. You gave me a perfect example.

    Motoport "the best impact absorbing QUAD-ARMOR in the world."

    Let's look at that statement. Let's ignore "the best" and look at the qualifying "quad-armor" phrase. Who else actually uses quad-armor any more? I did a google search and there was only 1 result with "quad-armor" and no surprise, it was Motoport! So you should've said, "we have the best and ONLY quad-armor in the world." So you very skilfully qualified your statement to make it true but actually meaningless and empty in a real-world sense. Maybe you were referring to Forcefield "Tpro" which you mention as something you compare to on your site. Yes, it has 4 layers so I guess it could be termed "quad armor". Well, that armour is ancient and I have a bunch of it. (it passed EN1621:1997 level 1!!!). Did you see that 1997 part? Level 1? Basically it's not sold anymore, is obsolete and has been superseded by Isolator 2 - a visco-elastic type which I have. I replaced it because it's stiff, not very flexible and there are better options for comfort and performance. It also failed my unscientific "hammer to the knee" test (similar to your hit the wall with your fist test).

    Let's see who else makes unsubstantiated, hyperbolic claims.

    "Klim utilises the best armor systems in the world."
    klim.jpg
    That's a bit more general than your claim and it's unqualified as to what "the" best actually means. However, they do mention their supplier D3o has certified their armor to CE level 1 but you can get very expensive jackets with CE level 2. However, d3o doesn't tell you how well they passed the test. They just passed. What do I think about d3o? I think it's arguably the most hyped and most well-known armor. There are more flexible, thinner and more protective options. It didn't use to work well in extreme hot or cold temps but I think they fixed that. It also fell apart after a few years. Maybe they fixed that too.

    Forcefield "class leading armor"
    Let's take a look at Forcefield who only make protective armor. They claim "class leading armor." That's like saying "the best" too, right? So "the best" is a bit subjective but in Forcefield's defence they do provide test results on CE standard tests which don't just show a PASS but they actual forces transmitted. (Pro sub 4k back protector 3.38kn "a world's first", limb armor 10.6kn). Is it flexible, not so much but it doesn't need to be in every limb. Too much flexibility is problematic, such as Bull-it Phantom armor which I returned for being too floppy. It also didn't seem to protect well in my unscientific "hammer" to the knee test even though it has Level 2 certification.

    Knox - the "first back protector in 1982" for motorcycle racing".
    So what? Has technology improved since 1982? Of course. However, I think Knox are OK. They make just a few hyperbolic claims but not many. Slightly annoying. But the marketing team have got to do something, right? They test and certify to CE ratings all their gear now, including full outfits, not just armor. Good job! However, they don't publicise how well they passed. Unfortunate. However, I've got some of their gear and it passed my unscientific "hammer to the knee" and "drop a brick on my knee from 1 meter test" very well. Plus it's CE certified to level 2, reasonably comfortable and unaffected by extreme temperatures. So I can live with that.

    My Conclusion: You can't trust any manufacturers' marketing claims. Look for independent, unbiased, scientific tests.
    So what can a consumer learn from all these claims (if applicable)? Well, it's obvious that every manufacturer says they are the best. So they can't all be, it's impossible. So who to trust? CE certification is not perfect but it's the best we have. Then there's https://www.motocap.com.au in Australia that tests some gear but they also use CE testing protocols. CE protocols aren't perfect but everybody seems to accept them as they are the only honest, scientific, repeatable, unbiased tests.

    A final word from an expert in the field:
    Neuroscience Research Australia’s Dr Liz de Rome, a rider since 1969, told the NSW Parliament’s Motorcycle Safety:
    “Cost and brand name is no indicator of whether the garment is fit for purpose,” she told the Inquiry.

    “We have to find a market mechanism to force the manufacturers to improve their products, and to enable that through what the riders buy."

    “The best quality product in the market in Australia today is probably the stuff in Aldi.”

    https://motorbikewriter.com/motorcycle-gear-fails-abrasion-tests/
  20. ukAdventurer

    ukAdventurer Been here awhile

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    If you insist on using anecdotal reports as proof of crash-worthiness, I accept the challenge. I raise your single crash report (no video, unfortunately) with 16 minutes of crashes with riders walking away mostly unscathed and little damage to themselves or their gear.



    None of the riders are wearing textiles? Kevlar or otherwise. I wonder why?

    For the record, I wear mostly Teknic 2-piece race leathers on long trips, double 1.6mm cowhide layered at the pointy bits and seat area. Around town, I wear Bull-it motorcyclist jeans or Aldi textiles (CE EN13595 level 2 certified for the whole garment).