Crazy-Awesome almost Dakar racer becomes real Dakar racer

Discussion in 'Dakar champion (950/990)' started by GezwindeSpoed, Aug 4, 2017.

  1. GezwindeSpoed

    GezwindeSpoed Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2009
    Oddometer:
    983
    Location:
    The land of the Dutchmen
    After failing to get enough people together to ride to Dakar in a touristic way I started talking to a car team (Van Eijk rally team) to get me onboard the Intercontinental rally 2018. We had good discussions about transport, service, what if... and so on. And now the decision is made to go to the Intercontinental rally 2018 on my KTM 950 SE!

    [​IMG]

    So I started making improvement to my bike because of some problem I encountered during the Tuareg rally in March this year.
    [​IMG]
    #1
    cappie, rubline, Allucaneat and 8 others like this.
  2. GezwindeSpoed

    GezwindeSpoed Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2009
    Oddometer:
    983
    Location:
    The land of the Dutchmen
    I fell over once with the fuel cap not closed properly, I lost fuel and did not know if I had enough for the rest of the stage. So I lost a lot of time sourcing fuel. On day 5 I was out of fuel after 3 out of 4 round. Because of these problems I bought a translucent tank and marked every 2L.

    [​IMG]

    I had boiling fuel on day 1 so I isolated the tank and fuel lines

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    Next problem was lack of cooling. I replced the standard guard by a more open gauze type protector. And wrapped the exhaust pipes to prevent heat radiation.

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    The result:

    [​IMG]
    #2
    Mr Head, nk14zp, -DeMoN- and 9 others like this.
  3. alongat

    alongat Fesh Fesh

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2010
    Oddometer:
    4,756
    Location:
    Windsor, United Kingdom
    Incredible - good for you. I'm relocating to Europe next week for two years, I'd love to find a way to help support you and see if TripleClamp Moto can help with some sponsorship. Let's connect offline to discuss - @keener @ThirdUncle are my partners and part of the reason for my move is to expand TripleClamp Moto to Europe but this interests me mostly because of tripleclamp's dedication to 950SE engineered solutions...
    #3
    Jeff Sichoe, Dracer35, nk14zp and 4 others like this.
  4. GezwindeSpoed

    GezwindeSpoed Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2009
    Oddometer:
    983
    Location:
    The land of the Dutchmen
    Next, I had a look at my water pump: all fins attached and in one piece. Then tested the thermostat using boiling water. It opened after a while and let go a good stream and closed using cold water. I also bought a replacement (used) and that showed similar behavior. So no expected gain in replacing the thermostat. So I removed it completely and replaced it with a copper elbow.

    [​IMG]

    A test in the garage showed a fast heating up to 4 bars, then the fans started. Quickly up to 5 and the back to 4 bars again. I performed the test without the seat and I noticed a stream of hot air over the air box. Maybe creating a big hole in the seat will improve airflow through the radiator. This will boil my eggs but fortunately I am mostly standing in technical sections.

    The a test drive to my work. In the morning warm up did not really change (within 5km, 4 bars) in some slow technical parts it went shortly to 5 bars but never more. On the way back it was unfortunately not as warm as I hoped it was but I did my best to get the bike hot. I got it to 5 bars but never higher. After some tarmac at 110km/u it cooled to 4 bars again. A few weeks ago I got 6 bars sometimes under the same conditions and no cooling to 4 bars on tarmac parts. So conclusion of this not so scientifically testing: it seems removing the thermostat helped cooling and does not negatively influence the warm up period.
    #4
    enduro16, Helibee and GoGoGavin41 like this.
  5. alongat

    alongat Fesh Fesh

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2010
    Oddometer:
    4,756
    Location:
    Windsor, United Kingdom
    We've been designing and testing a cooling solution for the LC8, especially on the SE. Initially, we were going to produce and sell a high flow water pump kit which is now in its final stages of production development but we have decided that just additional coolant flow isn't entirely the answer. Yes, improved coolant flow will reduce temperatures overall as Ktm had done this with the little bikes for years but what we are devising now is an electro-mechanical solution to the heating problem; a high flow water pump kit PLUS a programmable fan control kit with multiple stages to control the fans: no fan, low speed and of course high speed depending on inputs from the actual engine temperature sensor rather than relying on the simple "dumb" switch sensor on the radiator itself for controlling the fans. The current stock setup only has two modes; fans off an fans on but the problem is that as the engine heats up to just below the fans running, it can easily reach a state of thermal saturation as there is a big enough range of temperature between the bottom end of the range (where the mechanical thermostat opens for flow) and the top end (where the fans engage) - we have found that of we can program the fans to run at a low speed during that crucial temp range, it helps keep temperatures at bay and only when required do the fans kick in at high speed. This is the same thing you'll see on modern cars and the only way to avoid this thermal saturation so far has been to install a lower temperature fan switch which just runs the fans at the one single high speed at a lower temperature. We are going to continue testing and providing updates on our site.
    #5
    Dracer35, -DeMoN-, MadM and 5 others like this.
  6. GezwindeSpoed

    GezwindeSpoed Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2009
    Oddometer:
    983
    Location:
    The land of the Dutchmen
    Interesting!

    I think the SE also has this cooling difficulty because of its tank. The adventure has a nice cut out in the fuel tank facilitating a good flow through it. On the SE the hot air has to escape on the bottom of the tank or has to find its way between the tank and engine. A Safari tank makes it even worst because of the extra blob on the rear. I would love to put on the original tank and add a rear tank to get the needed range (hurry up Rade) and see if this makes a difference.
    #6
  7. alongat

    alongat Fesh Fesh

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2010
    Oddometer:
    4,756
    Location:
    Windsor, United Kingdom
    Rear tank under the seat is what I want as well, I don't trust the subframe but we've got a fix for that as well...
    #7
    -DeMoN- likes this.
  8. Parx400

    Parx400 Long timer

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2010
    Oddometer:
    6,813
    Location:
    Sacramento CA
    Didn't the SE come with a larger radiator?
    #8
  9. alongat

    alongat Fesh Fesh

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2010
    Oddometer:
    4,756
    Location:
    Windsor, United Kingdom
    Larger than what, the adventure? It is slightly larger on both surface area and capacity but as stated, the adv flows better so there's more efficient evacuation of heat regardless of the speed.
    #9
  10. Helibee

    Helibee Been here awhile Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2014
    Oddometer:
    383
    Alongat, out of curiosity, why is a one speed fan with a programmable set point less desirable than a low/high speed fan? At what heat point is the motor reaching full saturation and how do you determine that point? Is there a coolant temp that indicates saturation?

    Eliminating the thermostat is intriguing. I'm all about simplifying if there aren't harmful side effects.
    #10
  11. alongat

    alongat Fesh Fesh

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2010
    Oddometer:
    4,756
    Location:
    Windsor, United Kingdom
    The idea of a low speed setting is to avoid the usual cycle of low / high temps. The engine runs at a baseline which is controlled by the thermostat and it's limiting of coolant flow. From there on, the engine just heats up until the radiator's thermo switch activates the fan. So essentially, the engine's temps constantly cycle between rising heat and then reduced heat as a result of air forced across the radiator by the fans. The idea behind a low speed fan setting is to smoothen out that heat cycle curve, keeping the temps toward the lower end of the spectrum, as close to the thermostat's temperature point. Calculating the saturation is very difficult but in practical terms, once the entire system of engine, radiator and the coolant reach a specific temperature point, there's only so much any one thing can do to draw out that heat. The radiator is made of thin aluminum so it will dissipate heat very well and coolant by nature will as well however the heavier, more dense engine castings tend to "hold onto" heat and so that becomes more difficult to manage regularly. The idea is that if that point can be avoided by keeping fans at a lower speed, when the situation arises that the engine does increase in temperature (traffic, trails, etc), it will be that much less effort for the cooking system to reduce the heat as it won't be fighting that saturation as much as now.

    As for eliminating the thermostat, a lot of people do it without many documented downsides but just remember that fuel injected bikes are more dependent upon temps compared to carb'd bikes because the ECU makes adjustments to timing advance and air / fuel ratios somewhat based on engine temperature sensor inputs.

    Lastly; like with cars, bike manufacturers are running vehicles typically much hotter than many years ago and leaning a/f ratios more and more - all in the name of emissions control. A hot running bike with catilysts emits less pollution in general...
    #11
  12. alongat

    alongat Fesh Fesh

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2010
    Oddometer:
    4,756
    Location:
    Windsor, United Kingdom
    Sorry - you also asked if there's a temp sensor. Yes, there's an engine temperature sensor on all the LC8s which in my mind, is a much more accurate measurement point for actual engine temperature compared to a thermo switch reading coolant temperatures. This is why the FI'd bikes' ECUs take actual temp readings from that sensor.

    Another almost trivial benefit of multi-stage fan control is the reduction of parasitic draw on the electrical system. Fans running at high speed draw more current compared to those fans at a lower speed but it's so minor that it really isn't a tangible benefit for most.
    #12
  13. Helibee

    Helibee Been here awhile Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2014
    Oddometer:
    383
    Thanks for the detailed answer. I'll be pulling my thermostat when I get home and trying it out.

    I'm using a programmable fan switch from TrailTech. It works great. I have the trigger set at 180*. Given my set up and your experience/knowledge, what would you recommend the trigger temp be for a single high-speed fan?

    I've seen water temps as high as 205* on my trip, but usually associated with slow speeds. Once moving faster, it seems to consistently stay in the 185*F range.
    #13
  14. Helibee

    Helibee Been here awhile Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2014
    Oddometer:
    383
    My SE is an '07. If I was to use engine temp as my fan temp trigger, where would you pull the reading from? Oil temp or latent head temp readings?
    #14
  15. alongat

    alongat Fesh Fesh

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2010
    Oddometer:
    4,756
    Location:
    Windsor, United Kingdom
    I would think you want to set your fans to kick in at 88 degrees Celsius which is roughly 190 Fahrenheit, maybe even 84-85 Celsius.
    #15
  16. alongat

    alongat Fesh Fesh

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2010
    Oddometer:
    4,756
    Location:
    Windsor, United Kingdom
    Why not just use the existing engine temp sensor between the cylinders? Oil temps are nice to have as well but aren't necessarily a direct indicator of engine temps as far as coolant temp control is concerned.
    #16
  17. alongat

    alongat Fesh Fesh

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2010
    Oddometer:
    4,756
    Location:
    Windsor, United Kingdom
    #17
  18. Helibee

    Helibee Been here awhile Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2014
    Oddometer:
    383
    Yes, sorry for the hijack. All heat related though. :)

    Is that temp sensor not tied to an oil passage? May be a contact sensor I guess.

    Thanks again.
    #18
  19. alongat

    alongat Fesh Fesh

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2010
    Oddometer:
    4,756
    Location:
    Windsor, United Kingdom
    I'm under the impression that it taps into a coolant Jacket / cavity. Looping @keener as he's more intimate with this...
    #19
    Helibee likes this.
  20. keener

    keener Speed changes you.

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2010
    Oddometer:
    2,229
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    The green plug sensor between the cylindars on the left side is a coolant temp sensor.

    In 950 it feeds the dash directly. For 990 it feeds the ECU
    #20
    Helibee likes this.