CRF1000L spring and valving data base.

Discussion in 'Japanese polycylindered adventure bikes' started by Motociclo, Jan 31, 2019.

  1. Motociclo

    Motociclo Long timer

    Joined:
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    To make life potentially easier for anyone interested in upgrading suspension, and we're thinking of giving revalving, re springing or even servicing a try. I thought I would share a bit more of what i have. It will be a bit of a generic database of sorts.


    Springs first.
    I have calculated these spring options myself and they are largely inline with what a suspension tuner would recommend. I have written else where a couple of ways to choose springs. These spring rate options are as close as you will get. Low to middle of the range for ones weight range is where to aim. The high side of each range is on the firm side of things.
    Use or disregard at your own discretion.
    Based on bike weight of 261kg. This covers full tank, crash bars, bit of luggage.

    Fork springs.
    70 to 80kg, 0.65 to 0.68kg/mm
    80 to 90kg, 0.67 to 0.70kg/mm
    90 to 100kg, 0.69 to 0.72kg/mm
    100 to 110kg, 0.71 to 0.74kg/mm
    110 to 120kg, 0.73 to 0.76kg/mm

    Shock springs
    70 to 80kg, 9.5 to 9.8kg/mm
    80 to 90kg, 9.8 to 10.2kg/mm
    90 to 100kg, 10.2 to 10.6kg/mm
    100 to 110kg, 10.6 to 11kg/mm
    110 to 120kg, 11 to 11.3kg/mm


    Ktech spring rates and ranges.
    Forks, reg AT.
    70 to 90kg, 0.66kg/mm
    90 to 110kg, 0.71kg.
    110 to 120kg, 0.76kg
    120 plus, 0.82kg

    Forks, ATAS, (need to confirm rider weight range).
    70 to 90kg, 0.71kg
    90 to 120 kg, 0.76kg
    120kg plus, 0.82kg

    Shock,
    70 to 90kg, 10.2kg/mm.
    90 to 110kg, 10.7 kg.
    110 to 120kg, 11.2kg.
    120 plus, 12.2kg.

    On the Ktech site, they use the correct Nm/mm for spring rates. For continuity, I have converted to kg/mm.
    Compare these rates to what I have quoted. My quoted rates are pretty close to the Ktech options. My fork spring rates are a bit higher per weight range.


    These could be used in Adv sport also. Similar weights etc.
    Installed preload is approx 10mm for forks and shock spring.
    Forks have 15mm of preload adjustment, shock has 8mm from about 32 clicks on the adjuster.

    Ohlins spring rates.
    Forks,
    75 to 95kg, 0.71kg
    95 to 115kg, 0.76kg
    115+, 0.80kg


    Shock,
    70 to 110kg, 9.7kg
    110kg +, 10.7kg

    Ohlins spring options about the middle of what I calculated.


    In case of forks, if you get a longer spring, you will need to measure springs and trim the difference from spacer. Most after market springs are longer for At twin forks.
    Here is the part number for oem fork spacer,

    51404-MJP-G51,

    Common to all and very cheap. $4 aud. Cheap and easy to replace if you want/need to convert back to stock.
    For reference, spacer length, complete with plastic at top, 418mm.
    Only the metal part of spacer, 400mm.

    Try to get a spring closer to stock length as possible for shock. Most are longer though.
    You can factor in assumed luggage if you like also.

    Stock spring rates,
    Both Af twin variants use the same spring rates. ATAS fork and shock springs are longer.
    Forks, 0.55/0.56 kg. It is A progressive rate spring. Not much progression.

    Regular Af Twin, Shock spring, 8.4 kg.
    ATAS shock spring, 8.4kg.


    Fork travel reg AT, 220mm, ATAS, 250mm.
    Shock stroke on reg AT is 103mm, and on ATAS 113mm.
    Ohlins STX46,(HO646, HO649 and HO648),101mm.
    Rear wheel travel, reg AT, 220mm approx, ATAS, 250mm.

    Shock lengths,
    AT, 394mm.
    ATAS, 402mm.
    Ohlins STX46, HO646 and HO649, 395mm.
    Ohlins STX46, HO648,(ATAS), 402mm




    Stock fork spring length, 435mm.
    Cogent fork springs, 435mm. Same as stock.
    ATAS fork spring length, 465mm.
    Teknik 19-145 series fork springs, 465mm
    Race Tech FRSP S4047 fork springs, 470mm
    Hyper pro fork spring, 440mm.
    Ktech fork spring, reg AT, 445mm.
    Ktech fork spring, ATAS 470mm.
    Ohlins 08435 series spring, 466mm, (used in the FKA111 cartridge kit, ATAS).
    Ohlins 08434 series spring, 445mm, (used in FKA110 cartridge kit, reg AT.)


    Stock AT shock spring length, 238mm.
    ATAS shock spring length, 248mm.
    Teknik 20-075 shock spring, 248mm. Needs adapter to fit.
    Race Tech SRSP 6022 shock spring, 222mm. Needs adapters to fit.
    Eibach shock spring, 230mm. Needs adapter to fit.
    Ktech shock spring, 245mm. No adapter required. Fits straight up.
    Cogent shock spring, 238mm. Same as stock. No adapter required.
    Ohlins shock spring, for Ohlins shock only, 250mm. With 12mm installed preload. Common to all the AT Ohlins shocks.

    The ID of oem shock spring is 56mm at the top and 60mm at the bottom. This spring tapers.
    Most, not all aftermarket springs, are 60mm ID top and bottom.

    Complete OEM spri g dimenssions.
    Fork spring, OEM.
    Length, 435mm
    OD, 41mm.
    ID, 31mm.
    Wire, 5mm.
    Total coils, 26.
    Rate, 0.56kg

    Shock spring, OEM.
    Length, 238mm.
    OD, top, 78mm
    OD, bottom, 82mm.
    ID, top, 56mm.
    ID, bottom, 60mm.
    Wire, 12mm.
    Total coils, 8.
    Rate, 8.4kg.

    Sag range.

    Rider sag front and rear, anywhere between 65mm to 73mm for regular Af twin.
    For Adv sport, any where between 75mm and 83mm.
    In both cases, this is 30 to 33% of stroke.
    If you like it a touch higher, 25% is another option.
    Reg Af twin @ 25% is, 55mm.
    Adv sport @ 25% is, 63mm.
    These are just accepted guidlines.
    I run my rider sag out to 75mm these days with no ill effects on handling.

    Static sag. Don't sweat it to much. There those that do, but you will send your self crazy trying to get in the "accepted" range of 10 to 15%
    Reg Af twin, 22 to 33mm.
    Adv sport, 25 to 38.
    These are heavy bikes, as are all adventure bikes. Unlike MX bikes, where it us easy to get the static sag/rider sag balance, it is near impossible with these big bikes.
    You would need super high rate springs.
    That would create a very uncomfortable bike.
    Read next comment below on my thoughts on statuc sag.

    My current set up.
    I weigh about 117kg, ready to roll.
    I carry my panniers all the time. Pretty full of stuff i hope i don't ever use. About 20kg.
    I set my sag, gear on and fuel tank of fuel.

    Forks.
    Springs, 0.78. Rider sag. 75mm, with 5 turns of preload adjuster.
    Static sag, approx 38mm. Some would argue this is too much. But i am not real concerned what bike does when I'm not on it!!

    Fork spring wise, I use a 0.7 and 0.85kg. This averages out to 0.78, rounded off. Add the 2 rates, divide by 2.
    Using 2 different rate springs can get you closer to your ideal spring settings.
    Dual rate/progressive rate springs work differently. I posted else where how the rates are achieved for these type of springs. I don't go much on them. Good on people that do like them.

    Shock.
    Spring, I use a 10.7kg, (102N), K tech spring, that is 7mm longer than stock.
    Rider sag, 75mm with 16 clicks of preload adjuster.
    Static sag, approx 38mm. Read comment above!

    This set up I factored in my panniers etc. Keeps bike balanced.
    Add any luggage etc to bike, weight bias only moves more to the rear.



    Static and rider sag estimates.
    Have made a small equation to estimate static and rider sag.
    Both for forks and shock.
    I have done 2 estimates for rear sag for shock. One is for K tech shock spring options, which is 7mm longer,245mm than oem spring, and second estimate is based on a spring that is OEM length, 238mm, or a shorter spring with a spacer to get it to 238mm.
    Both estimates are based on 16 clicks of preload. Right in the middle. I have also aimed for the middle of the weight rages quoted.
    Other assumptions, bike weight at 255kg, and the factory 49/51 weight split. This would be a very lightly loaded bike. Fuel maybe small amount of luggage.
    These are just estimates. I have sanity checked it against my AT. Pretty close. +/- a few mm. This will give you an idea at least.

    K tech shock spring, 245mm long. 16 clicks preload.
    Rider weight range, 70 to 90kg
    Spring, 10.2kg
    static sag estimate, 31mm
    rider sag estimate, 53mm

    Rider weight range, 90 to 110kg
    Spring, 10.7kg
    static sag estimate, 29mm
    rider sag estimate, 55mm

    Rider weight range, 110 to 120kg
    Spring, 11.2kg
    static sag estimate, 27mm
    rider sag estimate, 55mm

    Rider weight range, 120kg plus
    Spring, 12.2kg
    static sag estimate, 24mm
    rider sag estimate, 51mm


    OEM length spring, 238mm, 16 clicks preload.
    Rider weight range, 70 to 90kg
    Spring, 9.2kg
    static sag estimate, 38mm
    rider sag estimate, 62mm

    Rider weight range, 90 to 110kg
    Spring, 10kg
    static sag estimate, 34mm
    rider sag estimate, 62mm

    Rider weight range, 110 to 120kg
    Spring, 10.5kg
    static sag estimate, 30mm
    rider sag estimate, 60mm

    Rider weight range, 120kg plus
    Spring, 10.9kg
    static sag estimate, 30mm
    rider sag estimate, 61mm


    Forks,
    Same weight ranges used. Same machine assumptions.
    Springs in forks can be mixed and matched to achieve desired rates.
    It is assumed, if using a longer fork spring, the spacer is trimmed to give oem installed preload. If spring you get is longer than oem by say 30mm, trim 30mm off spacer.
    These are just estimates. Also get quite close. Heavy bike, is hard to get static sag much lower. You would need very high rate springs, or heaps of preload. Neither of which are desirable. As for static sag, said it a few times, really doesn't matter what bike does when your not on it. This gives you an idea no less.



    Using 5 turns of additional preload.

    Rider weight range, 70 to 90kg
    Spring, 0.73kg
    static sag estimate, 55mm
    rider sag estimate, 73mm

    Rider weight range, 90 to 110kg
    Spring, 0.79kg
    static sag estimate, 50mm
    rider sag estimate, 68mm

    Rider weight range, 110 to 120kg
    Spring, 0.83kg
    static sag estimate, 47mm
    rider sag estimate, 69mm

    Rider weight range, 120kg plus.
    Spring, 0.85kg
    static sag estimate, 46mm
    rider sag estimate, 67mm.

    Like I have mentioned, these are just estimates. But will give you an idea of springs you need. Some of these estimates fall out side the accepted norm of sags. To be fair, at the level of riding 99.99% of us are at, a few mm either way isn't going to make a difference that matters. We ride for fun, not a living. Close enough, is pretty well good enough.



    Linkage.
    I have measure the linkage travel as accurately as i could.
    Here is results,
    First column, wheel travel,
    Second column, shock travel,
    Third column, ratio.
    0 0 , ratio
    20, 6. 3.33
    40, 13. 3.08
    60, 20. 3
    80, 27. 2.96
    100, 34. 2.94
    120, 42. 2.86
    140, 50. 2.8
    160, 59. 2.71
    180, 68. 2.65
    200, 78. 2.56
    220, 88. 2.5
    240, 98. 2.45.


    Travel to bump stop is 63mm.
    Quoted shock travel is 103mm. Measured from seal guardto thread at lower shock mount end is 99mm.
    It may 103mm from seal to thread. Last 4mm not usable due to seal guard on shock.
    Bump stop will stop you well before this anyway.




    Valving etc
    The comp clickers on Af twin forks seem to struggle to give any real effective adjustment of low speed damping. That's the primary purpose of the clickers.
    I have modelled and ridden the valving i use with no clicks, and one click. It is pretty much right. 2 to 3 clicks out, there is barely enough low speed damping, after 4 out, useless. The comp adjusters have an effect on high speed damping, but nothing like low speed, Which is primarily bleed. You can keep adding shims, but it doesn't have an effect where you need it.
    I compared Showa valve to the Gold valve, S2040,for these forks, same thing. But, the Gold valve performed much better than Showa at same 0 to 2 clicks out. Damn near perfect in a damping ratio sense.
    The comp stacks I will offer up for comp will be set up at 0 to 4 clicks out max for the forks. It really is that poor. Showa really skimped on comp adjuster. To be honest, it would turn out better with a shim stack designed to run with comp click set fully closed.
    Rebound adjuster on the forks is much better. Has decent control up to about 1.25 turns out. Equal to about 5 clicks.

    I have pulled the comp adjuster apart to see how needle interacts with bleed port.
    The needle when fully retracted, doesn't leave the bleed port. In fact, there is still about 2.5mm of the 5mm needle protruding into the port. At this point, the diametre of the needle is 2.7mm. In a 2.9mm port, there is 0.2mm of clearance. Not much really. The thing is, base valves only flow the oil displaced by damper rod. At full stroke, this only equals approx 17.3mL of oil. Not much at all. Some of this fluid goes through 0.7mm bleed hole in valve also.
    I have revalved my own forks to only use 0 to 2 clicks out on comp adjuster. Anymore clicks out on this and it is too soft on low speed damping and into mid speed damping.

    When RT gold valves have been used in AT, they don't recommend the addition bleed hole in comp valve.
    Stock total comp bleed.
    @ 0 clicks, is 0.7mm. Only bleed hole in valve.
    @ 7 clicks, is adjuster bleed plus 0.7mm, This equals, 1.15mm bleed.
    @ 14 clicks, full soft, adjuster bleed plus 0.7mm, equals, 1.6mm bleed.
    I have seen in other set ups using gold valves, bleed holes 1.3mm used in valve. I have found this in setups with no comp adjuster. Looking at whats quoted here, shows how much stock set up bleeds.
    Using gold valve setup with no additional bleed, only adjuster bleed.
    @ 1 clicks, 0.05mm bleed.
    @ 7 clicks, 0.45mm bleed.
    @ 14 clicks, full soft, 0.9mm bleed.
    There is much better bleed control with adjuster,lf using gold valves with no additional bleed holes.
    Gold valves do flow a bit more oil than stock, but not much more. About 2 clicks firmer, in GV favour, when comparing to valving.
    Typically RT valving is stiffer too.
    I have a 20mm KYB valve i plan to use with no additional bleed. This will allow me to get better use out of comp adjuster. It doesn't flow quite as much as stock valve, but is plenty capable to cover even hard off road.



    Rebound adjuster is a touch different.
    The entry ports on top side of valve are 2mm each. There are 2.
    The bleed hole exiting damper rod is 2.5mm.
    But once pulled apart, where the needle seats, bleed hole is 2.9. A step can be seen when looking through hole.
    The needle is fully seated and closes the hole at 2.9mm diametre. the diametre of needle at 3.5 turns out is 2.5mm. That gives a clearance of 0.4mm. There is also a 0.7mm bleed hole in rebound valve.
    Far more fluid flows through rebound valve, approx 52mL Of oil from bottomed out fork.
    The rebound adjuster does a much better job of controlling slow speed rebound.

    Stock total rebound bleed.
    @ 0 turns, is 0.7mm. Only bleed hole in valve.
    @ 1.75, is adjuster bleed plus 0.7mm, This equals, 1.6mm bleed.
    @ 3.5, full soft, adjuster bleed plus 0.7mm, equals, 2.4mm bleed.
    The rebound flows more oil than comp, approx 3 times more.


    Bleed data for forks.
    Comp adjuster bleed, 2.9mm. Needle travel. 14 clicks, equals 2.5mm. 0.18mm/click
    0.70mm bleed hole in comp and rebound valve.
    Rebound adjuster bleed, 2.9mm. Needle travel, 3.5 turns, equals 3.5mm. 0.25mm/quarter turn.

    Here are some pics comparing Af twin needles in comp and rebound. Very coarse.
    Rebound on left. The Af twin rebound needle is the first one. Super coarse compared to other 2. Other needles are off mx bikes. Rebound low speed adjustment is ok.

    Comp on right, At twin is the lower needle. Other needle also off mx bike.
    Fair comparison? Maybe, maybe not. But Showa could have done far better than what's been offered here. But that's what we have. As written above, comp low speed adjuster, not much good.
    Will try and mod the comp needle, and see if can get better results.



    20190410_141539.jpg

    Shock comp and rebound adjusters work quite well.
    Shock bleed,
    Comp adjuster, 1.5mm.
    Rebound adjuster, 3mm.



    Fork valving
    These are very generic valving options for the forks. They will do the job. But by no means are as good as a fully personalised set up, but will still be much better than stock. Minimal additional shims are required in most cases.
    These stacks will give you a good base line to work from and improve on. A few of these stacks are close to what i have given to a few people. As i have experimented and learnt more, i have now got some more complex stacks. The complex stacks usually dual stage stacks. Like i mentioned earlier, these are far better than stock and require minimal work.
    I will tweak these stacks from time to time.

    Use 10wt oil for these stacks.
    Shim ID for the forks, 6mm.
    Nut torque for shim stack, 6nm on comp and rebound, with blue loctite.


    Stock comp,
    17x0.10,(5)
    16x0.10,(2)
    15x0.10
    14x0.10
    13x0.10
    12x0.10
    11x0.10
    10x0.10
    9x0.10
    8x0.10

    Stock rebound,
    17x0.10,(3)
    16x0.10
    15x0.10
    8x0.10

    The new rebound stack.
    These are much better than stock and will be fine with a little adjusting. Note the use of 0.15mm shims and 9x0.10 shim. Adjuster, start at 1 turns out. Adjust to taste. Typical range will be 0.75 to 1.25 turns out.

    Rebound, use this stack for 0.69 to 0.78 springs.
    17x0.15,(3)
    16x0.10
    15x0.10
    9x0.10

    Use this rebound stack for 0.77 to 0.86 springs.
    17x0.15,(4)
    16x0.10
    15x0.10
    9x0.10


    Comp stacks.
    Adjuster, start at 4 clicks out. You won't want to go softer. It will have next to no effect. 1 to 3 clicks out is where you will likely end up with any of the below stacks.
    The 8x0.10 shim is dropped off stack straight away.

    Rider weight, 70 to 80kg,
    17x0.10,(5)
    16x0.10,(2)
    15x0.10
    14x0.10
    13x0.10
    12x0.10
    11x0.10
    10x0.10
    9x0.10

    80 to 90kg
    17x0.10,(8)
    16x0.10,(2)
    15x0.10
    14x0.10
    13x0.10
    12x0.10
    11x0.10
    10x0.10
    9x0.10

    This stack below, loses the 9x0.10 clamp shim. This stiffens the stack up quite a bit. This is the reason for less face shims.
    90 to 100kg
    17x0.10,(4)
    16x0.10,(2)
    15x0.10
    14x0.10
    13x0.10
    12x0.10
    11x0.10
    10x0.10


    This will be fine for this range. With each 10kg over 110kg, 1, 17x0.10 face shims could be added.
    100 to 130kg
    17x0.10,(5)
    16x0.10,(2)
    15x0.10
    14x0.10
    13x0.10
    12x0.10
    11x0.10
    10x0.10

    That's the forks covered. Very basic, very generic. But a good enough start if you are going to give revalving ago.




    Alternate fork comp valving option.
    I have narrowed up the weight ranges.
    All use 10wt oil and start at 4 clicks from hard.
    Springs in each range are a mid range pick. I rate either side won't make much difference, so don't sweat it if your rates are much different. Take note of changes in stacks in each range. They are in some cases, quite small.
    Rebound wise, use the above recommendations for spring ranges. They are plenty adequate. My current rebound, scroll down a bit, is for 0.78 springs. It would cover the below spring ranges easily. Would just have to use rebound adjuster to taste. Idealy, using below 0.75 spring, if using my rebound stack, I would drop off one of the 17*0.15 face shims.
    These stacks are the same or similar to more personlised stacks i offer.

    70 to 90kg, typical spring rate, 0.70kg.
    Soft,
    17*0.15,(4)
    9x0.10
    16*0.10
    14*0.10
    13*0.10
    12*0.10
    9*0.10

    Medium,
    17*0.15,(4)
    10x0.10
    16*0.10
    14*0.10
    13*0.10
    12*0.10
    9*0.10

    Hard,
    17*0.15,(4)
    10x0.10
    16*0.10
    14*0.10
    13*0.10
    12*0.10
    10*0.10


    90 to 110kg, typical spring rate, 0.75kg
    Soft,
    17*0.15,(3)
    17*0.10
    10x0.10
    16*0.10
    14*0.10
    13*0.10
    12*0.10
    9*0.10

    Medium,
    17*0.15,(3)
    17*0.10,(2)
    10x0.10
    16*0.10
    14*0.10
    13*0.10
    12*0.10
    9*0.10

    Hard,
    17*0.15,(5)
    10x0.10
    16*0.10
    14*0.10
    13*0.10
    12*0.10
    9*0.10

    110kg plus, typical spring rate, 0.80kg.
    Soft,
    17*0.15,(4)
    17*0.10
    10x0.10
    16*0.10
    14*0.10
    13*0.10
    12*0.10
    9*0.10

    Medium,
    17*0.15,(5)
    10x0.10
    16*0.10
    14*0.10
    13*0.10
    12*0.10
    9*0.10

    Hard,
    17*0.15,(4)
    17*0.10,(2)
    10x0.10
    16*0.10
    14*0.10
    13*0.10
    12*0.10
    10*0.10

    These stacks give a few more options. Far more progressive than generic options posted.
    Fork damping like shocks has a narrow ideal range.
    These options in each weight range, cover each end of the narrow band, with medium being just that.
    As I mentioned, take note of the differences, they can be subtle.
    I currently use the softest option in the softest range. Just a personal thing. I prefer firmer spring, with softer comp valving.







    Here is fork revalve guide,

    https://advrider.com/f/threads/crf1000-fork-revalve.1242323/

    I do mention this in revalve thread, but the fork cap install procedure in OEM manual is partially wrong.
    You still have to screw cap on, but manual says to screw down completely on damper rod. Do this, you end up with only 1.5 turns in the rebound adjuster.
    What I do to set rebound correctly, have rebound adjuster full wound out, full anti clockwise, then turn in 3.5 turns. Put fork cap on damper rod and screw down until you feel the rebound needle lightly seat.
    Run lock nut up against cap and tighten. Recheck to see if you have 3.5 turns in adjuster.
    Don't sweat it if you have a touch more or less. Typical range is between half a turn and 2 turns out.


    You can use Race Tech specs on stock valves with out much drama.
    Not a huge difference in flow between the 2. Go one less on they're spec sheet using stock valve.
    I have use 10wt fluid on above stacks, so if going gold valve route, you can choose between 5 or 10wt. Just read through specs to get right valve spec.
    AT damper rods are 10mm just for reference.

    In below sheets, RT quote these for on road valving. This is what is used in Af twin if you get them to revalve your forks, or you buy kit and diy. These sheets are very hard to find these days with this level of detail.
    Typically, you have to buy kit and use they're computer generated stuff. This also shows largely how generic RT valving is.


    Comp. Using S2040 valve.

    gold20_valve_sheet1.gif

    Rebound, using S02 valve.
    20190604_142652.jpg

    Fork oil level.
    Normally, oil level is set with springs out.
    OEM oil level for oem springs is 95mm, forks collapsed, springs out.
    With springs in place, level rises to approx 50mm from top, with forks collapsed.
    Generally, after market fork springs displace more volume due to thicker wire, longer length and sometimes more coils. OEM springs are a 5mm wire, most aftermarket springs I have come across are around 5.5mm thick.
    I won't list oil heights of various springs pre installation, but an unconventional way.
    If you install spring, then fill with oil, set oil level at the 50mm level, with fork collapsed.
    This method will cover any aftermarket fork spring used. As it takes guess work out and gives you the oem air gap/ oil level with spring in place.
    If you want a bit extra bottoming resistance, set level 47mm from top, spring in, fork collapsed.
    Want it a touch softer, 53mm from top, spring in, fork collapsed. In each case here of changing level, it is worth approx 5ml of oil.

    ATAS fork oil level.
    I believe stock oil level is 110mm from top, fork collapsed, spring out.
    With spring installed, is approx 70mm from top, fork collapsed.
    Using same logic as reg AT, 70mm with spring IN, will cover aftermarket sorings that will likely have bigger diametre wire.

    Triple clamps.
    Tighten top clamps to oem spec, 26Nm.
    Lower clamp, 10 to 12Nm max.
    I used a bore guage to measure distortion use oem 25Nm on lower. From memory was 0.1mm. At 10 to 12Nm, no distortion.
    Spoke with reputable tuners about this. They said they do similar thing. Some run as low as 7Nm on mx bikes on lower clamps.

    My new stacks.
    I have revalved my forks again. New springs, 0.78, and 10wt oil,up from 5wt. I weigh around 117kg geared up.
    Comp clicker, i run 4 clicks out. If this comp adjuster had finer control, it would be much better. Low speed wouldn't suffer how it currently does. The comp valve has a 0.70mm bleed hole. This is all I will be using for low speed bleed. I feel the comp adjuster is just too coarse to do much good.



    Comp,
    17*0.15,(4)
    9x0.10
    16*0.10
    14*0.10
    12*0.10
    9*0.10



    Rebound,
    Adjuster set to 1.5 turns out.
    17*0.15,(3)
    17*0.10,(2)
    10*0.10
    16*0.10
    12*0.10
    9*0.10
    Can be seen big differences between mine and generic set up. This is a very progressive setup.



    Shock valving.
    These set ups should work pretty well. Will be a good base line. The shock is much more receptive to change than the forks.
    As with forks, weights represent rider weight.

    Comp clicker, 7 out from hard.
    Rebound clicker 14 out from hard.
    Gas pressure, 160psi.
    Oil, 2.5wt. (CSt@40c, 16.1, CSt@100c, 6.2. Any shock oil close to these CSt measurements is fine. Ensure Viscosity index, VI, is greater than 300. Here is a link to fluids. http://www.peterverdone.com/wiki/index.php?title=Suspension_Fluid )
    Shim ID for shock, 12mm.
    Nut torque for shim stack 35nm, with blue loctite.

    Comp adjuster stock valving.
    17x0.20
    16x0.20
    15x0.20
    14x0.20
    13x0.20
    12x0.20
    11x0.20
    10x0.20
    9x0.20
    8x0.20

    Ultra stiff shims. 0.20mm shims are approx 8 times stiffer thsn 0.10. This is what helps create enough pressure to minimise cavitation.

    Bleed. 1.5mm for comp adjuster.
    No bleed hole in valve.
    3mm bleed for rebound.


    Stock comp stack.
    40*0.15,(4)
    38*0.15,(2)
    36*0.15
    34*0.15
    32*0.20
    30*0.20
    28*0.20
    26*0.25
    24*0.30
    22*0.30
    20*0.30



    New comp stacks,
    These comp stacks drop the 20x0.30 shim straight up.

    70 to 80kg
    40*0.15,(4)
    38*0.15,(2)
    36*0.15
    34*0.15
    32*0.20
    30*0.20
    28*0.20
    26*0.25
    24*0.30
    22*0.30


    80 to 90kg
    40*0.15,(6)
    38*0.15,(2)
    36*0.15
    34*0.15
    32*0.20
    30*0.20
    28*0.20
    26*0.25
    24*0.30
    22*0.30

    90 to 100kg,
    40*0.15,(7)
    38*0.15,(2)
    36*0.15
    34*0.15
    32*0.20
    30*0.20
    28*0.20
    26*0.25
    24*0.30
    22*0.30

    100 to 130kg, This stack covers this weight range quite well.
    40*0.15,(8)
    38*0.15,(2)
    36*0.15
    34*0.15
    32*0.20
    30*0.20
    28*0.20
    26*0.25
    24*0.30
    22*0.30


    Stock rebound stack.
    Super weak stack. Can't control stock 8.3kg spring. Anything higher rate, will just over whelm rebound. Even with adjuster full closed.
    36*0.25,(4)
    34*0.25
    32*0.25
    30*0.25
    28*0.25
    26*0.25
    24*0.25
    22*0.30
    20*0.30
    18*0.30
    16*0.30

    New rebound stacks.
    Much better than stock. The 16x0.30 and 18x0.30 shims are dropped off straight up.

    Spring, 8.7 to 9.2kg
    36*0.25,(6)
    34*0.25
    32*0.25
    30*0.25
    28*0.25
    26*0.25
    24*0.25
    22*0.30
    20*0.30


    Spring, 9.0 to 9.5kg
    36*0.25,(8)
    34*0.25
    32*0.25
    30*0.25
    28*0.25
    26*0.25
    24*0.25
    22*0.30
    20*0.30


    Spring, 9.4 to 9.9
    36*0.25,(9)
    34*0.25
    32*0.25
    30*0.25
    28*0.25
    26*0.25
    24*0.25
    22*0.30
    20*0.30

    Spring, 9.7 to 10.9.
    I found that this stack was well good enough to control springs in this range.
    36*0.25,(10)
    34*0.25
    32*0.25
    30*0.25
    28*0.25
    26*0.25
    24*0.25
    22*0.30
    20*0.30



    Alternative shock valving.
    Still using stock valve.
    Comp clicker, 10 out from hard.
    Rebound clicker 10 to 12 out from hard.
    Gas pressure, 160psi.
    Oil, 2.5wt. (CSt@40c, 16.1, CSt@100c, 6.2. Any shock oil close to these CSt measurements is fine. Ensure Viscosity index, VI, is greater than 300. Here is a link to fluids. http://www.peterverdone.com/wiki/index.php?title=Suspension_Fluid )

    Some alternate soft, medium and hard options for shock.
    The hard option, will be pretty firm. Unless you are Ricky Carmichael, Soft to medium will be good options all round.
    Have narrow weight ranges and centre valving around 3 spring rates. Like forks, don't sweat it if your spring is either side of posted springs, it won't have a huge effect.
    Shock damping has a narrow band, like forks.
    Take note of shim changes. Some are quite subtle. In the higher weight ranges, there appears to be less shims. Reason, removing the smaller shim, the clamp shim, it has a big effect on whole stack.
    It stiffness entire stack, hence less face shims are required.

    Comp,
    70 to 90kg, typical spring, 9.7kg
    Soft,
    40*0.15,(6)
    38*0.15,(2)
    36*0.15
    34*0.15
    32*0.20
    30*0.20
    28*0.20
    26*0.25
    24*0.30
    22*0.30

    Medium
    40*0.15,(5)
    38*0.15,(2)
    36*0.15
    34*0.15
    32*0.20
    30*0.20
    28*0.20
    26*0.25
    24*0.30

    Hard,
    40*0.15,(8)
    38*0.15,(2)
    36*0.15
    34*0.15
    32*0.20
    30*0.20
    28*0.20
    26*0.25
    24*0.30

    Rebound, 70 to 90kg, 9.7 spring,
    36*0.25,(6)
    34*0.25
    32*0.25
    30*0.25
    28*0.25
    26*0.25
    24*0.25
    22*0.30


    90 to 110kg, typical spring, 10.2kg,
    Soft,
    40*0.15,(8)
    38*0.15,(2)
    36*0.15
    34*0.15
    32*0.20
    30*0.20
    28*0.20
    26*0.25
    24*0.30
    22*0.30


    Medium,
    40*0.15,(6)
    38*0.15,(2)
    36*0.15
    34*0.15
    32*0.20
    30*0.20
    28*0.20
    26*0.25
    24*0.30

    Hard,
    40*0.15,(9)
    38*0.15,(2)
    36*0.15
    34*0.15
    32*0.20
    30*0.20
    28*0.20
    26*0.25
    24*0.30

    Rebound, 90 to 110kg, 10.2 spring,
    36*0.25,(6)
    34*0.25
    32*0.25
    30*0.25
    28*0.25
    26*0.25
    24*0.25
    22*0.30

    110kg plus, typical spring, 10.7,
    Soft,
    40*0.15,(5)
    38*0.15,(2)
    36*0.15
    34*0.15
    32*0.20
    30*0.20
    28*0.20
    26*0.25
    24*0.30

    Medium,
    40*0.15,(8)
    38*0.15,(2)
    36*0.15
    34*0.15
    32*0.20
    30*0.20
    28*0.20
    26*0.25
    24*0.30

    Hard,
    40*0.15,(11)
    38*0.15,(2)
    36*0.15
    34*0.15
    32*0.20
    30*0.20
    28*0.20
    26*0.25
    24*0.30

    Rebound, 110kg plus, 10.7kg spring,
    36*0.25,(3)
    34*0.25
    32*0.25
    30*0.25
    28*0.25
    26*0.25
    24*0.25

    This gives some more options. Requires minimal shims. Will repeat again, take note of the changes.


    My current setup use a 10.7kg spring and a 46mm KYB valve. Shim stacks are a bit different to above. Stock valve works fine, just like to experiment. The KYB valve is a good option though. I have stacks etc, listed in shock rebuild thread.

    https://advrider.com/f/threads/crf1000-shock-rebuild.1243059/








    Setting up the whole show.
    You got springs sorted, revalve done, sag set and bike is ready to roll. Time to set adjustments. Above shim stacks haves settings noted with them.
    If you had respring and revalve done by a tuner, they will likely have set adjuster. Don't change settings until you ride. They get it pretty close straight up. Maybe a couple of clicks either way.
    If your just looking to improve what you have, then this will help to an extent. The Af twin is under sprung and under damped for anyone heavier than about 80kg. If doing hard off road, forget it. You could ride through it no question. But handling will be rubbish.
    Below info is pretty generic and can be used on any bike with damping adjustment.

    Rebound adjustment. Always do rebound first.
    Go for a ride. Get suspension up to temp. Forks do run pretty cold, but shock does warm a bit. Get a mate to hold bike.
    Start with forks, turn rebound adjuster to full soft, so full anti clock. Hold front brake and push down like you hate it. You need to hold brake still, but let forks extend with out resistance from you.
    Do it a few times to see how forks react. They will likely fully extend, then settle a bit.
    If that's the case, add 2 clicks of rebound and repeat. What you want is for forks to extend completely and as fast as possible, but not settle. Top and stop.

    Shock, looking for same response. You won't use brake, Just Get mate to hold front of bike.
    Use same method, full soft rebound, push down on rear area or of bike, around rack is good, and watch the return. Then add clicks of rebound until it tops and stops.
    This will get you very close to ideal. Ride and see how it goes. Maybe a click or 2 on forks or shock to taste.

    Comp, do last and adjust to taste. Don't be afraid to use extemes of comp adjuster to feel what it does. You will fi d your sweet spot with a little finessing.
    In saying that, fork comp adjustment is not real hot. 0 to no more than 4 clicks out, seems to be about the usable range.

    You are looking to run in the mid 2/3rds of stroke, front and rear.

    Always ride first, then adjust suspension. Forks do run pretty cold, but They do warm up a little. Any adjustment you do cold, will change when warm.
    Most adjust suspension dead cold. Thats why i have made this point a few times.



    Weight of machine.
    I weigh bike prior to putting in new springs and revalving. I also weigh the unsprung weight. This is essentially the lower portion of forks and front wheel, and swing arm and rear wheel assembly. Going tubeless, dropped about a 1kg from wheel assemblies.
    My twin, loaded,(i have panniers full of stuff i hope i don't need), full of fuel, with full Camel tank, plus other odds and sods, comes in at 293kg. That heavy.

    Weight split,
    Front 130kg,
    Rear, 163kg. Factory weight split about 49/51, as mine sits, 44/56.

    This is what i measured in total.
    Rider weight distribution is about 36/64, front to rear. Seems unlikely, but thats what i got.
    Thats sitting in a normal riding postion
    My weight is about 117kg ready to roll. Add that to above figures,
    Front total, 172kg.
    Rear total, 238kg.
    Total, 410kg.
    Gives a split of 40/60 approx.
    If i dropped of panniers, 22kg in total, i know to much crap, this would be,
    Front total, 172kg.
    Rear total, 216kg.
    Total, 388kg.
    Split, 43/57 approx.

    Unsprung,
    Front, 22kg.
    Rear, 26kg.

    Fork tubes.
    Here is a bit of info i pieced together.

    https://advrider.com/f/threads/another-crf1000l-fork-thread-reg-vs-adv-sport-forks.1346588/


    Fork wear parts.

    Fork seals
    Seal sizes,,
    45 x 57 x 11 seal.
    45 x 57,3/62 x 6/13 dust.

    SKF Fork Seals Kit (KITG45S)

    Artiste seal, ARI.067, Seal.
    , ARI.091, Dust

    Kawasaki oil seal 92049-0118. Cheaper, better option than oem. Thanks @Greg the pole

    Race Tech,
    Seal, FSOS 45P
    DUST, FSDS 45P


    The bushes, are common to all model of these forks.
    Sizes,
    Inner, (on lower leg), 45*20*1.5mm
    Outer, 45*15*2mm.



    Shock wear parts.
    Race Tech have the shock shaft bush as 1412, it is in fact a 1410. 14mm ID, 10mm long.

    Shock oil seal, 14 x 26 x 5mm, ( RT part no. SSOS14).
    Shock dust seal, 14 x 22mm, (RT part no. SSDS14).
    Complete Race Tech shock seal kit, SSOS14S.




    Fork swap options.
    If you are thinking of swapping out forks for KYB units, here are some dimensions of potential candidates. They will need shims in triple clamps to take space difference.
    Thanks to @Junglejeff1 for the info.

    For reference, stock clamp sizes for AT are,
    Top, 57mm.
    Bottom, 60.5.

    KYB forks.
    2005-14 2 strokes: Upper 56.0mm.

    2005-09 YZ450F: Upper 56.0

    2005-12 YZ250F: Upper 56.0

    2010-15 YZ450F: Upper 54.0.

    2013-15 YZ250F: Upper 54.0

    2006-2012 KX450F: Upper 54.0

    If 2020 models are different, i will update.
    These are same for all models 2016 onwards.


    Miscellaneous stuff.

    Forks
    Reg AT internals.
    Damper rod OD, 10mm
    Damper tube total length, 465mm
    Oil lock tube, 79mm, ( oil lock stops 20mm from bottom of this tube).
    Damper tube, (where rebound lives), 326mm
    Complete comp assembly length, 56mm
    Rebound stack to comp stack clearance at fork bottoming, 10mm.





    That's the data base for now. Will update it from time to time.
    Can be seen most changes are minimal and also only a small amount of shims required to get an adequate set up.
    Hope some of you get some value out of it.
    #1
  2. TequilaSqueela

    TequilaSqueela Been here awhile

    Joined:
    May 8, 2018
    Oddometer:
    219
    Location:
    US
    You're a saint. Thank you for this contribution. This is the kind of thread people will be getting in search results for the next 25 years.

    ... Don't use Photobucket ;)
    #2
    Lost Cartographer and Motociclo like this.
  3. BLU_FZ1

    BLU_FZ1 Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2013
    Oddometer:
    558
    Location:
    West Aust
    Ever helpful, cheers
    #3
    Motociclo likes this.
  4. pepebayeta

    pepebayeta Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2007
    Oddometer:
    637
    Location:
    Spain
    [​IMG]

    Good on ya, thanks mate!
    #4
    Motociclo likes this.
  5. mentolio

    mentolio King of the island of unwanted toys...

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2016
    Oddometer:
    920
    Motociclo: thanks for posting this! My AT suspension improvement campaign stalled due to other projects in the garage, but I will definitely be using this thread as a guide...sooon!
    #5
    Motociclo likes this.
  6. Greg the pole

    Greg the pole There are no stupid questions, only stupid people

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2011
    Oddometer:
    2,295
    Location:
    Calgary, AB
    #6
    Gemel, yokesman and Motociclo like this.
  7. Lost Cartographer

    Lost Cartographer Been here awhile Super Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2011
    Oddometer:
    756
    Location:
    AZ and CA
    @Motociclo

    Have you done any work on the shock base valve (compression adjuster shim stack)?

    I'm concerned about stiffening up the compression stack on the piston by itself - too much comp damping on the piston relative to the base valve can lead to cavitation.

    When ridden hard on rocky / choppy / washboard surfaces my stock shock looses damping and turns into a pogo stick in just a few minutes.

    It gets pretty warm, but not scorching hot like a dirt bike damper does.

    I have to assume that the stock damper has cavitated and is no longer producing damping force like it should (vs normal heat related fade that I would expect from a hot shock that wasn't cavitating).
    #7
  8. gve.mcmlxxiv

    gve.mcmlxxiv 2016 Africa Twin DCT No.272

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2017
    Oddometer:
    458
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Say what? Did I just read that you are back to stock compression valving in shock?
    #8
  9. Lost Cartographer

    Lost Cartographer Been here awhile Super Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2011
    Oddometer:
    756
    Location:
    AZ and CA
    Doh I should have re-read the other suspension thread before pulling my base valve apart.

    What torque did you use on the base valve nut?
    #9
  10. Lost Cartographer

    Lost Cartographer Been here awhile Super Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2011
    Oddometer:
    756
    Location:
    AZ and CA
    Uh oh where did the database go?

    Looks like I picked a bad day to tear my forks down....

    Anyone know the fork piston and base valve torques?
    #10
  11. gve.mcmlxxiv

    gve.mcmlxxiv 2016 Africa Twin DCT No.272

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2017
    Oddometer:
    458
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Are you talking the nuts that hold the valves on or the fork center bolt?

    Centering bolt on bottom is 25ft-lb
    Fork damper lock nut is 15 lb-ft
    Fork bolt on top is 26ft-lb
    #11
  12. gve.mcmlxxiv

    gve.mcmlxxiv 2016 Africa Twin DCT No.272

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2017
    Oddometer:
    458
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Maybe he got a different bike.
    #12
  13. Lost Cartographer

    Lost Cartographer Been here awhile Super Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2011
    Oddometer:
    756
    Location:
    AZ and CA
    These two:

    IMG_20190528_184422.jpg
    #13
  14. gve.mcmlxxiv

    gve.mcmlxxiv 2016 Africa Twin DCT No.272

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2017
    Oddometer:
    458
    Location:
    Arkansas
    #14
    Lost Cartographer likes this.
  15. swimmer

    swimmer armchair asshole

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Oddometer:
    17,935
    Location:
    Tucson, AZ
    Seems like he's deleted a bunch of his posts. You can't delete threads without mods help though. He was a real asset to AT owners. Shame.
    #15
  16. Amphib

    Amphib A mind is like a parachute....

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2018
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    3,759
    Location:
    Wnc
    Yeah he was, his avatar is gone as well. Hope he's alright....Wish him well regardless of his reasons. Other than a couple of deleted posts that were really no big deal in the grand scheme of things, I'm guessing he got honked off about something. Learned a lot from him.
    #16
  17. BLU_FZ1

    BLU_FZ1 Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2013
    Oddometer:
    558
    Location:
    West Aust
    Thats really unfortunate, a great guy that helped me out and im sure others
    #17
  18. gve.mcmlxxiv

    gve.mcmlxxiv 2016 Africa Twin DCT No.272

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2017
    Oddometer:
    458
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Does anyone on here have shim restacker that might be able to crank out a few configurations for the group?
    #18
  19. Pipe dreams

    Pipe dreams Adventurer

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2016
    Oddometer:
    95
    WTH
    Hope everything is OK with Motociclo.
    #19
  20. BLU_FZ1

    BLU_FZ1 Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2013
    Oddometer:
    558
    Location:
    West Aust
    Have had a few words with Motociclo, hes doing ok
    #20