D.I.Y. Cam Chain Replacement

Discussion in 'Parallel Universe' started by Dieselboy, Sep 22, 2011.

  1. chinchinete

    chinchinete Learning to fly

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  2. ballbag

    ballbag long time n00b

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    Yes - there is a thread on the manual tensioner here somewhere
  3. chinchinete

    chinchinete Learning to fly

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    Nice, I’ll check that! Thanks
    JC


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  4. Bear Creek West

    Bear Creek West Been here awhile

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    Great thread here...
    Does anyone have a Canadian source for the cam chain master link?


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  5. Bear Creek West

    Bear Creek West Been here awhile

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    question - using the master-link method, when I pull it through do the cams need to turn as well? It appears as though some have fed the chain through with the cams removed, but if the valves are open on cylinder 2, does the top of the piston hit the open valve?

    Thanks
  6. Bayner

    Bayner Long timer

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    I don't think it'd be prudent to rotate the crank with the cams in place. I'm honestly not sure if this is an "interference" type motor or not.
    With cams removed and the spark plugs out there's little resistance and it's much safer.
  7. Bear Creek West

    Bear Creek West Been here awhile

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    I can certainly see the advantage of removing the cams to give more slack to reconnect the chain. So thinking out loud here, if cams removed then valves won't move, but if cylinder 1 is at TDC, will valves on cylinder 2 not stay open when turning the engine? if it is interference motor then piston will hit, no? I'm guessing it's not interference motor, but looking for confirmation from someone who has completed this!
    Thanks.
  8. Bayner

    Bayner Long timer

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    Without the cam in place the spring will force the valve closed, so no worries.
  9. Bear Creek West

    Bear Creek West Been here awhile

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    Thanks Bayner, makes perfect sense.


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  10. TheJoker

    TheJoker Adventurer

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    Yeah, just to confirm, you take the cams out, and that pushes the valves shut and with the spark plugs out you can rotate the engine without too much friction. I don't think it can be done easily, or at all, with the cams in place. Wouldn't even try.
    Bear Creek West likes this.
  11. Bear Creek West

    Bear Creek West Been here awhile

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    Has anyone got a pic of the v-notch TDC locator slot on the crank-shaft?
  12. Reaver

    Reaver How Did I Get Here?

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    [​IMG]
    Bayner and bmwroadsterca like this.
  13. Bear Creek West

    Bear Creek West Been here awhile

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    muchos gracias!
  14. fara

    fara traveling danger

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    I have finished replacing the chain. New chain is a LOT tighter than the replaced one. It was tricky to put the chain over the last cam when installing them. To insert the tensioner bolt afterwards I really had to put a lot of pressure on the bolt to engage the threads. This was not the case with the original chain. With the tensioner installed there is no play what so ever in the chain.

    Question to other guys that have done this, is this expected from a new chain? My bikes odometer shows 28K km, could the original chain really have stretched that much?
  15. todd900ss

    todd900ss Been here awhile

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    Yes mine was the same way, tensioner was tight to get in.
    As for mileage can’t say. Mine was done at 42k miles. I’m not the original owner so I have no idea how long it was making noise.
  16. fara

    fara traveling danger

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    Thanks for your reply. :)

    I riveted the chain yesterday evening. First I have a problem with the punch included in my chain tool. Apparently the metal the master link pin is made of is harder than the metal my chain tool is made of. When trying to punch the link it made marks in both the punch and support. So I dug around in my tool box after a old and dull drill bit to use as punch. Didnt find any but I found something else that was pointy and looked hard. I have no memory of having it and what it is meant for.
    rivet-punch.png

    But that doesnt matter, it worked with my chain tool and when testing it on the old chain it worked perfectly! :)
    chaintool-punch.png

    Now my chain is riveted and tonight I will finish putting my bike together again. :)
    riveted-chain.png
  17. Wacholek

    Wacholek IN SEARCH OF PERFECTION.....

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    Hi everyone.
    I have F800S and I am preparing myself to the timing chain change. I have the same slack, rattle on start.
    However I wish to share some of my observation with you and counting for your opinion.

    1. Why everywhere I looked everyone says that the F800/F650 twin engines are dry sump lubricated?
    K71_S11126a.jpg
    Referring to the above image there are definitely two oil pumps. Small one, is the high pressure pomp to lubricate main bearings, cam shafts and so on (yellow trace). Big one, is the low pressure pump just for the spraying oil on gearbox sprockets.
    First pump suck the oil from the bottom oil compartment (the sump) only. Second one suck the oil from the small oil sump in the crankcase on the bottom of it. This is the first place where oil is collected from the high pressure circuit. From this place second pump suck oil to spay it on the gearbox sprockets. Than oil from there gravitationally go to the bottom sump.
    So engine have two sumps but both of them are field gravitationally so this is not a dry sump lubrication system.

    2. Once again referring to the above image we clearly see that the chain tensioner is driven by the spring and the oil pressure. It is not a strait foreword driven by oil since there are two ports (inlet and outlet) in the tensioner chamber. However pressure in this place is the same as on the pressure sensor so from 1.5 to 4 bar. So we cannot say that the oil in tensioner is just for dumping. It has huge impact on the timing chain tension. Definitely the dumping part is important an due to considerably high volume of the high pressure circuit but in some cases (like in my bike) can lead to audible noise on hot engines (like in my case).

    3. There is a number of ides how to solve the problem with the rattle but non why timing chain gets stretched. It can be a material issue. Possibly. But I have different theory.
    I have noticed that on some low rpm's an excessive vibration can be noticed. Generally F800 engines is running very smooth. But when the revs are to low on higher rpm's strong vibrations can be noted. For example on 6'th gear and below 3000RPM. Those vibrations came form the very lightweight crankshaft construction. On that low RPM crankshaft have very variable speed. It speeds up after the ignition and than slows down. An all that is done in single turn onf the crankshaft. That cause a lot of jerking on the timing chain and stretching it over time. But there is also another cause of the vibrations. The oil level. I have noticed that high oil level is not good for those engine. I mean like MAX on the meter. Than just below 3000rpm the vibrations are noticed. Lowering the oil level to MIN value gave me extra 400rpm's shake free so now below 2600rpm vibes can be noticed. I realized why this happened after I review the above image. It seems that when there is high level of oil the small sump at the bottom of the crankcase ( the one which oil is sucked by the second oil pomp) fill up with oil and that oil obstruct the move of the crank. I did that experiment 4 times on different temperature conditions. That would explain why some engines rattle having 16k km on the clock and some without any problems running up to 70k km. Both the same year of manufacture.

    In conclusion. I strongly believe that low level of oil (not below MIN) and riding on higher rpm's ( above 3500) will prolong timing chain life.

    My F800S have 25k km on the clock and the rattle is there not only during start but also on the hot engine (from time to time). My timing chain is very loos. I already have the new, redesigned tensioner installed. I have also checked the piston slap issue and there is no problem with that.

    I am curious how other owners and mechanics of the F800 will say about my observations.

    Cheers,
    Chris
  18. JRWooden

    JRWooden Homeless motorcycle vagabond ... and ... loving it

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    Chris:

    Very interesting observation on the oil level.. I've been on the forum now for 10 years+ and not heard of that experiment.
    There was a guy that hung out here "joelwisman" who is one of the best mechanics/engineers I've ever known.
    He no longer follows the forum as he is the service manager now for an Aprilia dealer.
    But check this thread: http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?p=20787146

    Joel also thought that a major contributor to the issue was the light flywheel and the very long run of the chain.

    There is supposed to be an official BMW tool to measure the cam chain system wear.
    Joel describes it here:
    https://advrider.com/f/threads/f-8-engine-noise-engine-oil.833910/page-3#post-20787146

    A friend of mine is the Parts Manager for a BMW dealer and the owner of an F800GS.
    He has looked and looked for the tool intent on buying one for the dealership, but can not locate it.

    I think another contributor to the wear is the cam grind.
    I own a 2009 F650GS (800cc) and the cam grind is much milder than many of the other versions.
    It makes sense to me that this means less load on the chain and longer life.

    I am just back from a 15 month trip in Central America and have 80K miles on my bike now.
    I plan to install a new cam chain tensioner as a preventive measure, but other than the rattle at cold/overnight start-up,
    I don't hear any evil noises from my chain.

    I "assume" (yeah, I know that's dangerous - esp. when BMW engineering is involved) that the cam chain tensioner is designed similarly to a hydralic lifter in an automotive engine, so ... after 80K miles I don't want to take chances on mine wearing out.....

    Keep us posted on what you learn!
  19. Wacholek

    Wacholek IN SEARCH OF PERFECTION.....

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    This is exactly what I experienced with my F800.
    I did the research. I took me about the year to test every known possibility of the problem. I have this bike for almost a year and had driven only 5k km because of the noise issue. Not when cold but when hot. I tested 4 different oil brands and viscositys of oil.
    I will post what I did for diagnostics late on.
    shuswap1 likes this.
  20. vasuvius

    vasuvius wannabe something ... don't know what

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    I heard the dreaded rattle yesterday on my commute home. It was gone within 3-5 minutes of starting the bike.
    It also seems to only rattle when the bike is stopped, in neutral and I pull in the clutch. There is no rattle if it's in 1st gear and the bike is stopped (and clutched pulled in of course).
    Bike has almost 22K miles on it. Need to find time to read through this thread and plan to do the fix.

    thanks, v