Dear Motoport:

Discussion in 'Vendors' started by motorradfahrer, Jul 26, 2006.

  1. Beachboy

    Beachboy Been here awhile

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    I ain't got no dog in this fight, just adding my observations -

    Thanks to Wayne for directly responding to his market, via his post earlier in this thread. Two-way communication between and accessibility to both the craftsman and to the end-users usually results in better understanding and greater satisfaction with the product or service. I have always felt that the lack of vendor / manufacturer involvement in these type forums was a loss of opportunity.

    Thanks to Damytzeus for sharing his story and photos, money invested in good gear is seldom wasted, even if you don't chose to do such extensive field testing as Damytzeus. I imagine that even realizing that he is putting himself up for the observation, dissection and critiqueing of his accident, he still put it out on a public forum for others to benefit from.

    I just spent all my gear funds for a while, but will definately consider motoport when I can next upgrade or replace gear.
    #21
  2. Wayne at Motoport

    Wayne at Motoport Been here awhile

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    I'll try to answer some of the questions posted on this thread. It is again very difficult to be brief. Pages can be written on just one of the subjects below.
    If you go on our web site that sucks at: www.motoport.com On the Home Page go to the top right corner and click on: Save Your Hide. This is an independent company that test material tear and abrasion strengths. The numbers for 500 Denier Cordura are shown and these are the same specs that you can find on any of Dupont's, (they make Cordura.) advertisements. 500 Denier Cordura is the best material I've seen used for over all contruction in motorcycle apparel. Both the tear/abrasion strength is by a long shot inadaquate for use on a street bike. How do I know this? 500 Denier Cordura tears at a little over 21 lbs.. Take your body weight and add 5 mph and hit the ground. I've seen 500 Denier Cordura tear in a 5 mph tumble. Want more proof? Do you think that they will ever allow a road racer wearing a suit made with 500 Denier Cordura? Do you think they will ever allow any of the current synthetic motorcycle apparel to be used road racing? Cycleport Kevlar apparel was approved for road racing by: FIM (World Championship Road Racing), AMA, WERRA etc...

    Here are some more facts:
    1. All motorcycle apparel made with Cordura other than Cycleport/Motoport is Polyurethane coated on the inside. Polyurethane is plastic.
    a. This Polyurethane coating can melt into the skin in a tumble sometimes even before the outside is damaged.
    b. Polyurethane coating reduces the tear/abrasion strength of the material by 20 to 30%.
    c. Polyurethane makes the material stiff/bulky.
    d. Polyurethane traps water in the garment staying wet for hours.
    e. Woven Polyurethane coated materials can't breathe properly in warm weather.
    f. Polyurethane does not make the material waterproof. It is used only to seal the threads, so the material does not fray.
    d. When a material tears at 22lbs or less the seam strength is again inadaquate. (500 Denier Cordura tears at less than 22lbs..) Doesn't matter what seam strength the suit has.
    If you wear other synthetic apparel, the majority is made with Polyester, tear/abrasion protection is 2 to 3 times worse than 500 Denier Cordura.

    2. Impact protection is the #1 priority.
    a. See my previous thread on Tri-Armor a few letters back.
    b. If a suit has proor tear/abrasion strength, the armor can't protect you if it falls apart.

    3. 1000 Denier Cordura's tear/abrasion strength is better than 99% of all leather. "See Save Your Hide" To be clear this is the 1000 Denier Cordura that Cycleport/Motoport uses. All other 1000 Denier is not adaquate.
    a. We use Cordura that has no Polyurethane coating. (20 to 30% stronger)
    b. We use Cordura that has a special weave. (This is also different than any other 1000 Denier I have seen.) This weave gives more tear/abrasion strength.

    4. The best racing grade leather in the world tears at approximately 80 to 110lbs..
    a. Leather first, is not versatile in cold/wet/hot weather.
    b. Leather offers proper protection in road racing. "MOST OF THE TIME". If there is any high impact force to the seams of leather the seam will fail. Majority of road racing crashes have a low impact force to the suit. (High forward speed with low impact.) Abrasion strength is a priority for road racing suits. We have had thousands of racers wearing our leather suits in the past. Sometimes even with the best stiching/thread the seams would fail at low speed tumbles because of a high impact to the seam areas. The majority of tumbles in street accidents can have a serious impact to the seams. Hitting a car, curb, pole, fence etc... at 10mph can cause the seams of the best leather suits in the world to fail.

    So here it is in a brief statement:
    Motorcycle apparel for street riding should have, high impact protection covering the main impact areas of the body, material with high tear/abrasion/seam strength, air should pass through outer garment layer with ease and for versatility should be Waterproof/Windproof/Breathable.

    Look again at Save Your Hide.
    Our materials have higher tear/abrasion/seam strength than any other motorcycle apparel on the planet. Seam strength of over 2000lbs.. Our apparel is also waterproof/windproof/breathable.

    In a few threads on this web site, I've read comments asking why no other companies are similar to Cycleport/Motoport.
    a. We spend more on one yard of our material than most other companies spend making 3 jackets/pants.
    b. Our company has spent more than any other company or country on designing protective motorcycle apparel.
    c. I have a patent that covers our materials/armor/design etc..

    A rider asked for proof/studies of the claims we make. I can email many pages of reports, many performed by independent companies to prove all the above statements. cycleport@motoport.com For 16 years our company, Motoport, was the largest motorcycle apparel company in the world. I commuted back and forth from Germany sometimes up to 10 trips per year. We studied thousands of suits that have been crashed. Analyis of crashed suits is the best way to learn about desinging protective gear. Note: Cycleport/Motoport USA Inc. is now independent.

    This same rider asked me about the Halverson suits. Here are my comments:
    1. A zipper can fail very quickly, a tumble at low speed, stitching fail, alteration etc...It appears to me that these suits are made in Sweden or my guess China. If they do make good gear you want the manufacturer to work on it. What does the owner of this gear do? Shipping cost to Sweden and back at least $130.00 along with a month or more delay. If the suit is synthetic I would bet it is made in China. The owner of that gear is even worse off.
    2. I couldn't find any detailed info on the gear. If a reader understands the above info he or she can figure out if it is good.
    3. This rider has put too much validity in "CE" standards. Here are my problems with CE standards:
    a. A manufacturer can claim and stamp CE approved on any gear they sell. There is no penalty for doing this along with no entity that verifies CE approval. Many motorcycle apparel companies claim they use Cordura. It is usually Polyester. Any company can get boxes of Cordura patches for free from Dupont.
    b. If you study the CE testing methods even a scientist here in the USA would be confused. They use machines made in Europe that are nearly impossible to compare with measurements here in the USA.
    c. CE standards have no requirement for comfort/breathability/areas of the body to protect/amount of armor etc.... If the armor is too stiff or hot, the rider may just remove it. CE has no requirement for the armor staying in place in a tumble.
    I can go on but this should be enough.
    d. If this rider wants a leather suit for regular street riding, the Halverson is a bad choice. I'm sure there are many riders reading this that have worn leather and our suits. After wearing our gear it is extremely rare that they put leather on again. (Comfort is hard to explain unless you experience it.)
    e. If the entire suit is made out of stretch Kevlar, (racing grade,) from Schoeller, Kevlar mesh from Schoeller, or uncoated 1000 Denier Cordura that is basket woven, all material uncoated, Safety Lock Stiched with #90 Nylon Thread, zip out Waterproof/Windproof/Breathable Liners, Armor that comes close to matching our Tri-Armor that covers 64% of the body, I still wouldn't purchase the suit because its made in Sweden or problably China. We make some of our garment in China but we use all the same materials, they are simply assemebled in China. We manufacture in house the same items so repairs, alteration etc.. can be done quickly.

    If you go on our web site: www.motoport.com Click on Testimonials (Next to Save Your Hide.) Go down the left side of the Home Page and click on: Dictionary, Kevlar etc...

    THE MORE YOU KNOW THE BETTER IT GETS!!!

    Best regards,
    Wayne Boyer
    President, Cycleport/Motoport USA
    #22
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  3. ldbandit76

    ldbandit76 Life is good.

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    Wayne,

    Thanks for the reply. Let's go point by point...

    What method do they use for the tear and abrasion tests? How comparable are those methods to the forces seen in a crash? And surely they know about the CE standards.

    That is not a meaningful way of describing tear strength as it applies to a fall.

    And upon what data did they make those decisions?

    Do you have any data, or even any anecdotal evidence, that this is the case?

    Data on this? Was the material used in your tests PU coated or not?

    If you say so. What tests have you done on your impact protectors? What kind of forces do they transmit at what impact energies?

    And yet, strangely, FIM and other racing organizations do not permit the use of Cordura suits in racing. Either they're misinformed, in which case their approval of your kevlar suits is meaningless, or cordura isn't as good as leather, which they do approve.

    How much stronger are the seams in your kevlar and cordura suits than a leather suit? If all suits have weak seams, this is a bit of a red harring.

    Then you must have tested all other motorcycle apparel. Can you provide comparison data with the "best of the rest?" I await especially comparisons with HI-ART materials. Surely you know what those are, since you've compared your stuff to everything else.

    Which garment is this? Kevlar or cordura? What strenth do seams in leather provide?

    a. Expensive means nothing without objective, comparable data.
    b. Do you have the budgets of other companies to prove this?
    c. There are lots of patents. A patent proves nothing but that you paid to get a patent.

    Probably me. You'll be getting mail from me.

    Yep. So you being close by makes your suit better? Or just easier to fix when it breaks?

    True. But a good company can also provide the test reports from a known CE lab to prove their suits pass. Jofama is one of those.

    I understand them, and I'm just a layman. And if you're willing to spend more money than anyone else, surely you can ship one suit to a lab in Europe...

    Regarding US testing: Andy Goldfine at Aerostich managed to get his suits tested per CE standards (but he doesn't publish the results). I know you're more safety-driven than he is, right?

    The CE standards are safety standards, and all we're talking about is safety. They do include specifications on coverage areas and sizes. User mis-use is a non-issue. Do you have any data or test results indicating that your pads stay in place better than the other guys'? If not, then that point is moot, too.

    No, you haven't said anything objective yet.

    Why? It's not leather, it breathes, and it passes cut, tear, burst, abrasion and impact standards set by objective experts. It's also available with both mesh and waterproof shells.

    So when you make your stuff in China, it's okay, but when someone else makes their stuff in China, it's not okay? Is convenience of repair more important than demonstrable, objective test performance against a known standard?

    For what it's worth, the Halvarssons suit is made of a patented (heh) three-dimensional weave synthetic material that is made and assembled in Sweden. And they call it HI-ART.

    I'm sure your products perform very well compared to just about everything else out there. But, when you claim "best in the world" you should have a touch more data than you've shown to prove it, and you should be very familiar with the state of the art as it develops, be it in the US, in Europe, or anywhere else.

    Dave
    #23
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  4. PizzaHog

    PizzaHog Thought Criminal

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    (rant)

    Has anyone - ANYONE - subjected any of their gear, bikes, insurance/warranty policies and/or spouse/Significant Other to the level of granular intensity ldbandit76 is subjecting Motoport to in this thread? Has anyone read the CE standards, much less understood them and subjected that standard's underlying assumptions and data to similar scrutiny? I know I haven't, nor have I performed any of the level of due diligence being performed in this thread on anything I've ever bought.

    In the same spirit Wayne was asked for additional information, I would like to ask the following:
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    1. The Halvarsson products ldbandit76 used as an example can be fitted with a "CE approved back protector" - but BKS says that "a CE Marked back protector for motorcycle suits does not exist." CE-approved suits, according to BKS, aren't required to have back pads - yet I'd like to have some for reasons that should be obvious (BKS does offer them). Can anyone explain this blatant dichotomy to me?

    2. The BKS suits ldbandit76 mentioned in one of his posts here are entirely CE-approved; does anyone understand what this really means? What kind of accidents will I live through while wearing it? And what kind of accidents are these suits knowingly inadequate for? Were charging wildebeasts included in this certification? Is there a warranty, so that if I fail to survive an accident my uber-suit was designed for, my estate can litigate? (If the armor is shit, you can't aquit! :rofl )

    3. BKS' suits also meet the "Cambridge Standard" - what does this claim mean, and what is the value of this claim? That it can debate well in several languages?

    4. An industry benchmark, Rukka, uses ARMACOR, which "is as abrasion resistant as racing leathers, as tested by the ADAC in <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Germany</st1:place></st1:country-region>." Who is ADAC, and what criteria did they use in their evaluations? How can Rukka make this claim - and has anyone independently verified it? And, please, don't forget to verify that their gear also meets "EU standard 1621-1"!

    5. What about claims that leather looses abrasion/tensile strength after getting wet? Does the CE standard even address how many soakings a leather outfit can tolerate before it's protection is reduced? What if it's "acid rain"? What if Helen Thomas were to look at it after it's third saturation?

    :huh

    To make this even more "relative" - there is no One Standard to "Rule Them All, and in the Darkness Bind Them."

    Another example of "standard goofiness": helmets. Snell/M2000/M2005 certifications, British BSI 6658 Type A certification, Euro ECE 22-05 certification: all have different requirements, and used different data to achieve their results. The now-infamous Motorcyclist helmet study (http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/gearbox/motorcycle_helmet_review/) used different impact parameters than Snell uses, and came up with wildly different results.
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    If nothing else, the Motorcyclist study shows that relying on certification alone may be a mistake - yet I know most people (and I emphatically include myself in this group) usually rely - to some extent - upon certification claims prior to purchase. But beyond those certifications, I rely upon personal recommendations/testimonials when I don't have the time - or inclination - to become informed to the level of intensity pursued in this thread.

    No, I'm not affiliated with Motoport in any way - I just bought a jacket (no liners) from them this week. Haven't gotten it yet, but I will put it to the rack and obtain all the info it is deliberately witholding!
    </u1:shape></u1:path></u1:f></u1:f></u1:f></u1:f></u1:f></u1:f></u1:f></u1:f></u1:f></u1:f></u1:f></u1:formulas></u1:stroke></u1:shapetype>
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    (deep breath)

    I guess I'm trying to, in an ironically heavy-handed way, suggest that the posts might need to get less Inquisitorial in this thread. If you don't believe Wayne, e-mail him for God's sake! My finger is getting numb scrolling past the lengthier postings!

    (another deep breath)

    Now the penguin on top of your telly will explode...:D
    #24
  5. license2ill

    license2ill Banned

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    ldbandit76 is asking all the right questions, in hopes for finding something that may be better than other options. Unfrotunatley Wayne hasn;t supplied any info that leads to that definitively leads to more than menaingless claims. No difrent than what many other companies say and do in their info exchange, and I appreciate him coming in here to at least make an attmempt. However, at a certain point, we've got to ask oursleves about legitimicy when it comes to safety equipment, and al lthe well-intentioned effort in the owrld doesn;t amount to a hill of beans without real, credible performance info. I;d be more than happy to grill anybody else about heir statements or products, and any true salesman worht their salt will gladly take all questions and critiicsms and overcome them with the right info, or they go home. I'm glad Wayne came on, but this is more than an ad, it's an open forum, and if he wants to spereate himself form teh crowd, then he needs to be hold his info up to the more credibile standards that come with that.

    Keep asking questions. Keep analyzing the answers. I;ve posted numerous times about the CE standards and what they mean. Keep reading, and keep apying attention. Ldbandit76 is one of the few who has taken th etime to figure some stuff out and we need more riders doing the same.
    #25
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  6. Wayne at Motoport

    Wayne at Motoport Been here awhile

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    Best regards,
    Wayne
    #26
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  7. novasquid

    novasquid will ride for food

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    i say we petition Mythbusters to outfit Buster their test dummy with Motoport and a bunch of other gear to test them in real world conditions. How's about dropping Buster off the back of a flatbed truck going 100mph? :D But then again, their crew couldn't even start a fire using 2 sticks and friction, so as far as they're concerned "fire" is a myth. :rofl
    #27
  8. novasquid

    novasquid will ride for food

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    wow, it turns out i have the 3/8" thick armor in both the stretch pants and jacket i received about 3 weeks ago. i'd like to get the proper armor, but i think it's uncool to expect us to pay shipping for the bad armor back to motoport.

    anyone else with the 3/8" thick armor?
    #28
  9. Wayne at Motoport

    Wayne at Motoport Been here awhile

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    The incorrect Tri-Armor thickness is 1/4". The correct thickness is 3/8 to slightly thicker. The thinner armor actually provides the same impact rating as the thicker. The manufacturer told me today that they are having a problem with the molding machine compressing/cutting the armor.

    So if your Tri-Armor is 1/4", we replace the armor at no charge.

    Sorry for my mix up.

    Best regards,
    Wayne
    #29
  10. PHOTON PHIL

    PHOTON PHIL THe REAL poser

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    Wayne, Do I have to replace the Tri-Armor?? I got my suit form you about 4 waaks ago. Absolutly the BEST I even worn. Thanks for making such a great siut. I LOVE it.:clap :clap :clap
    #30
  11. Wayne at Motoport

    Wayne at Motoport Been here awhile

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    Sorry, again I don't know what gear was sent with the 1/4" armor. If your Tri-Armor is 1/4" and you don't like it, we will replace at no charge.

    Best regards,
    Wayne
    #31
  12. azabeemerboy

    azabeemerboy Long timer

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    Sounds like the bottom line is the 1/4 and the 3/8 are equally as good just one is compressed more than the other. Same volume of material.

    Correct Wayne:ear
    #32
  13. Wayne at Motoport

    Wayne at Motoport Been here awhile

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    Best regards,
    Wayne Boyer
    #33
  14. Gregg Wannabe

    Gregg Wannabe Just killing time

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    Wayne might be a little fast and loose with some of his claims, but if you had ever tried on one of his jackets you'd love it, feel very safe and would instantly forgive any of his verbal transgressions. Perhaps his garments are not for everyone, but they are truly one of a kind.
    #34
  15. chaserkeywest

    chaserkeywest Been here awhile

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    Hey Wayne! HOO RAHH baby, I be buying more Motoport......
    #35
  16. ikonoklass

    ikonoklass Kountersteering Krew

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    Please leave Wayne the hell alone so he can make my suit! :clap
    #36
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  17. WickedChicken

    WickedChicken just don't tell Mom...

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    My .02:

    + The full system is just as important as the individual components. Examples of shitty, incomplete systems: A rider with a $900 Arai helmet and $2 flip flops, a perfectly tuned bike with worn out tires, ballistic fabric stitched overseas with crappy cotton thread. The weakest link principle applies here. There are a lot of safety gear manufacturers that advertise their jackets and pants based solely on the armor or titanium insert or whatever. But I want to use Wayne's stuff because he puts care into everything: armor, fabric, stitching, and fit. In other words it's a solid, complete system...not just a hodgepodge of good components.

    + The best way to test *individual* components is through lab tests, such as the ones Wayne is describing. Basic systems (i.e. a seam joining two pieces of fabric) can also be tested in a lab.

    + However, lab tests don't offer a 100% complete view. It's difficult to create reality in a lab. Further, lab work entails testing one variable at a time. Whereas in a crash, there are hundreds of variables that come into play instantly (speed, surface type, force vectors in turns, temp., rider weight, etc., etc.) The forces and stresses applied to a suit during a crash are super-complex and highly individual.

    + In my opinion, labwork is crucial. It provides a standard threshhold or baseline. But with motorcycle crashes, corroborated, anecdotal evidence is just as crucial. Studying these crashes is probably the best evidence we have (like a real life lab).

    I for one would love to read as much as possible about scientific testing of fabrics, garments, and gear. But that's just the beginning. At the end of the day, the scientific tests just get you in the door. It's hearing from riders who've walked away from get-offs and crashes and slides that's made up my mind. That's why it's awesome to read these threads and have individual users weigh in. Sure, it might not be statistically significant in itself, but I'd much rather trust my skin to this stuff than to my current armored gear.
    #37
  18. datchew

    datchew Don't buy from Brad

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    You guys are stressing Wayne out.
    If you don't want to buy his stuff, don't buy it.

    I think the man has more than adequately established that he has probably forgotten more about motorcycle gear than most of us will ever learn.

    Wayne, I love my Kevlar stretch pants. Kudos. Keep up the stellar work.
    #38
  19. Thinc2

    Thinc2 Paciugo

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    If i was a vendor I would think twice about posting to this site. For those that do - I think it's evidence of their customer focus.

    But invariably, no matter how good their product, they end up getting attacked in some way, and asked to justify things that are way out of scope for their size. We're not talking to Dupont here folks.

    Fact is, I've yet to see a post by someone who actually owns Motoport gear that has anything negative to say. Everybody loves their stuff.

    That's quite an endorsement.
    #39
  20. ON_the_DL

    ON_the_DL My safety's Harvard

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    Oddometer:
    200
    I'd like to see it. An actual product that we can buy in the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:smarttags" /><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">USA</st1:place></st1:country-region>, not some prototypical garment with names of materials that can not even be verified as to construction. I would venture to say the CE is a pretty good standard and if possible buy CE approved gear. However, it should be noted that many manufactures produce plenty of garments that are CE approved in some form or another which happen to be total junk compared to Motoport. I had a whole setup from Revit...boots, gloves, jacket, and pants. If you are curious about the issues I had with Revit feel free to search my posts. Basically, for the money it is total crap imo. Now none of my gear has ever been crash tested (knock wood) but all I know is I feel as safe as I can realistically be in my Motoport gear (Air Mesh Ultra II pants and jacket). It also means a lot to me to know if I have an issue I can go straight to the source. My retailer (scuderia west in SF) kinda screwed me over when I wanted to return my falling apart $1k worth or Revit stuff. This forum is for VENDORS to answer specific questions about products and have open discussion not for biased unsubstantiated hearsay. Now for some totally biased but completely substantiated direct testimony. "I love my Motoport gear". At first I was really put off by the long lead time but I lucked out and got a standard sized jacket in 4 weeks. I was a bit worried also because you can't really see this stuff in person anywhere. That being the case I hesitated and did not order the pants, even though Wayne said "you will want the pants...they 100% returnable for a full refund if you don't like them...order now and get a jump on the lead time." But nooooooo I waited until my jacket came and sho enuff I wanted the pants and had to wait the full 12 weeks to get them. Man was it worth it....the pants are even better than the jacket imo. Very well thought out and functional. Anyway, sales pitch over. If you are thinking of getting Motoport, stop waiting and get your order placed. Best move I ever made in gear selection. If you are not sure it's right for you or you might be unhappy, just ask <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Wayne</st1:place></st1:City> about his return policy. :D <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>
    - Bruce<o:p></o:p>
    <o:p> </o:p>
    #40