Dear Motoport:

Discussion in 'Vendors' started by motorradfahrer, Jul 26, 2006.

  1. ON_the_DL

    ON_the_DL My safety's Harvard

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    Dave, I challenge you to show me a gear manufacture's website that actually shows detailed comparisons of their gear and their competitors gear. If you can provide an expert study comparing many different protection garments I sure as heck would like to know about it (even though I already bought Motoport). Talk about your 'exaggerations'! This information is simply not available. If you can prove me wrong it would make me happy because I'd actually like to see this info. I'm sure if there is a test it won't include Motoport so it's basically irrelevant in this thread anyway. All you can do is look at materials used for construction and the manner of construction and make your own decision. Now, the large manufactures don't want you to be able to do this though. That is why they use proprietary fabric names like "Meshtex", "Hypertex" "Armor-Link Mesh" and so on. There are plenty of products out there claiming to be 'the ultimate touring jacket' for example. This is the sales end of the business and these types of claims should be scrutinized closely...including Motoports claims. That being said, Motoport is still the best I have seen. I don't want to crash test it but I know I did my due diligence and think I am pretty well protected.<o:p></o:p>
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    #41
  2. Steve G.

    Steve G. Long timer

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    I currently own an older DIFI Ultra 1000 from Wayne's company. I also own 7 other jackets. The Motoport one is ultimatly the one I use. 10 yrs and around 100,000 miles. Comfort is my main reason, as well as knowing I am wearing "the beast", safety wise.
    2 months ago I had an unfortunate 'off 'wearing this jacket. The thing saved my shoulder, elbow, and left torso. Damage to the jacket amounted to the left arm vent zipper ripping open. Once I got it home, I was able to fix the zipper with needle nose plyers. Throw it in the wash, good to go.
    Soon after I got it, I found myself in Moscow, Idaho, needing to cross over to Challis Idaho. It was over 100 deg F in Moscow, and over the pass, it was snowing and 28 deg F. down over the other side in Challis, it was 102deg F. Not once did I open close a vent, or open or close a zipper. And, I remained comfortable the whole time. There is something about the waterproof liner he uses that is different from the others. It's almost temperature regulating.
    If there is one negative I could utter about the 1000 cordura jackets that Wayne is making, and it's not really a negative. The jackets are so heavy duty, it can be difficult finding gloves that fit over top of the cuffs of the ends of the arms, ones with a big enough guantlet. Again no complaints. My Omega watch thanks you for making them so, as it came through the shunt I had without a scratch!
    Oh, and also the big jacket is so festooned with armour, no-one can see my true belly profile which is a good thing I guess.
    Actually Wayne, if you read this, I have to say I miss seeing you and your crew at the Cycle World event in Seattle each winter. I was at your place back in '98 when you were near the Carlsbad Airport. It's a long ride from Vancouver to So-Cal. Was it just not worth while going to the shows?
    Ciao, Steve G.
    #42
  3. Mojowkng

    Mojowkng Cyco Dog

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    During 9 years of riding at an average of 1K/mth. I have serially used the Motorport Ultra II in a) cordura b) stretch kevlar and c) kevlar mesh. Wayne has been great with the creation of all this gear and I have been absolutely impressed with the service the gear has given me. Keep up the great work! BTW: in spite of Wayne's claim that he no longer advertises....I am walking/riding advertisement of his products. Yipee for Motoport products!!
    #43
  4. BladeFlap

    BladeFlap Ex Dream Crusher

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    Before next summer I'll be investing in some good gear. Most likely going down the Aerostich road, but I have spent a lot of time at the Motoport site.
    I respect Wayne for opening himself up to this kind of fire, but I personally think it's a direct byproduct of the way he advertises his product.
    Many of the claims on the Motoport just don't sound realistic to me.
    So far he's been taken to task over the tear/abrasion claims, and I can't comment because I don't know crap about it.
    I do live in Fairbanks, Alaska where the average winter temps are about -25F.
    So I know something about cold weather clothing.
    And when I read this on the Motoport site:
    "Cycleport is the only company making motorcycle apparel that will take you from –20F to 120F in comfort. "
    I can't help but snicker. I'm sorry.....there is just NO f'ing way that a motorcycle jacket and waterproof liner is going to keep you comfortable at -20F. At 70mph??
    You have got to be kidding me. Unless by "comfortable" they mean that warm happy fuzzy stage you reach as you enter severe hypothermia: I've heard that described as "sublimely comfortable".
    Now if we are supposed to assume that under that Kevlar suit we'd be wearing full body electrics and some serious insulation, I still don't see how it would be possible to fit enough insulation under a properly fitted motorcycle suit that would keep enough heat in.
    It would be too baggy for summer use.
    I realize that this is one of the least important claims made, but I 'm not one of those people that cuts the mold off the cheese and eats the rest. If part of the whole is questionable, it all is.
    I have read many of the positive reviews of Motoport gear and this is the only reason that I remain interested.
    My point is: You can't blame the skeptics who are willing to call B.S. when they smell it. If the product is so wonderful (which I'm honestly not doubting) why make claims that are obviously exagerated. The facts should speak for themsleves.
    #44
  5. Steve G.

    Steve G. Long timer

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    I'll go along with you on those temperature extremes advertised. It seems a stretch, and I'm one who is tough to convince through talk or quote. I personally experienced 25-30 to over 100 degrees in around 4 hours. I was worried, as I'm a cold blooded bugger. I'm of the opinion that warm may be uncomfortable, but cold stings, hurts. I genuinely had no issues that afternoon I mentioned.
    Oh, and I find the best cheese is the sort that starts to crawl off the plate, never mind the mold thing, cheese is controlled mold afterall.
    Ciao, Steve G.
    #45
  6. PizzaHog

    PizzaHog Thought Criminal

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    As I live in coastal CA, I can't address those insane AK temps - do you guys *really* ride in -25* F? Yikes. :eek1

    What I can address is the stretchiness of the Kevlar jacket material.

    I'm not sure the Air Mesh material actually stretches, but I know the stretch Kevlar lives up to it's name. The Air Mesh has an inner panel of the Stretch on both arms. If I wear a double-thick fleece jacket under my Air Mesh, things are snug. When I take it off for warmer/afternoon riding, the jacket (and armor) stays snug. At no time does the armor float around like it does in my other jacket (that I bought too large, in hindsight).

    Also, I can't explain why the jacket seems comfortable in a wide range of temps, but it is. I'll ride into work @ 0630, and it can be in the low 40s. I ride home in the evening, it can be in the 90's. The only thing I do different is wear that fleece jacket in the morning - and I don't sweat on the way home with it in my topcase. I think I'd be pretty hot 'n sweaty @ 120*, though.

    I would *guess* that an electric vest, heated grips and a jacket under the Air Mesh would be good down to the teens, and maybe below. The Stretch Kevlar is supposed to be warmer. But, I don't know.

    Just my .02...
    #46
  7. BladeFlap

    BladeFlap Ex Dream Crusher

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    #47
  8. RichardU

    RichardU Let's Ride

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    I bought complete suits for myself and my wife (about $2,000) sight unseen, based on the recommendations of this group. I'm glad I did. Wayne went well out of his way to accommodate us. He is a first rate guy.

    I believe what he does is both a business and a cause. He sincerely wants to protect people from the risks of motorcycling. He has passionate ideas about how to do so, and I find him both credible and commendable.

    Thanks, Wayne. You are an asset to the community.

    By the way, when you look at Jackets on his site, be sure to go to page 2 and check out the Riva AX. It's far more form-fitting than the Ultra, and the stretch kevlar is very comfortable.
    #48
  9. PizzaHog

    PizzaHog Thought Criminal

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    To more directly address the concerns re: Wayne's claimed comfort range, I'd say that he might be correct. *I've* never owned a jacket that would feel comfortable in 120* temps, but I'm not sure anything would, especially if you're not moving. However, given all that armor and the nature of the fabrics used in the Motoport jackets, it should be easy to wear enough layers of warm clothing under the jacket to stay warm in the colder temps, yet the jacket would stay well-fitted when you have to ride in the warmer temps.

    Clear as mud? :huh
    #49
  10. license2ill

    license2ill Banned

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    Here's the thing about the armor. Wayne is completely off-base with the issues of the CE standards or the testing issues, and certainly with what it means to "exceed" the requirements in a real way. I find that really unfortunate, but not surprising. I appreciate his comments in the thread though.

    If I understand what was said correctly, the armor test involved a flat anvil with a mass of 8.5lbs dropped from 12". That is not going to generate much impact energy. In contrast, the CE standard for motoryclist limb impact protectors uses a drop with an 11lb(5kg) anvil at a 1 meter in height to generate the impact energy of 50Joules. The impact energy of 1/3 less mass and 1/3 the acceleration of gravity is not going to generate anywhere near the 50 Joule impact energy.

    Wayne talks about Motoport being the only company to measure the initial "force" and the residual force, but this appears to be a misunderstanding of the terms I just talked about. The "initial force" is the impact energy created by the impactor, and the residual force is the transmission to the body. Any and all standards for impact protection use this form of measurement and testing protocol. For helmets, Snell and all others measure the residual acceleration values of the headform expressed in G's. which is similar to the force transmission measurement used for all proper body impact protector testing protocols.

    When talking about being 13% better than other armor, you've got to ask what that means within those numbers. There is a point at which bones will break, and that creates a threshold for impact protectors to be designed around, the force transmission aspect. Current medical wisdom sugget the limb bones are susceptible to those injuries at a point of 25kN of force. The Cambridge standard uses this point as the requirment for passing. The CE standard draws on that, but is compromised to the level or 35kN. What's to understand about that is that values below 25kN are not going to inflict damage that the impact protectors are designed to protect against. Anything under 25kN is meaningless. So being 13% better means nothing to actual abilities of the armor, especially when impacted at such a low severity as created by the 12" drop described by Wayne. 13%, well that's simply the difference between 7kN and 8kN, both values being completely irrelevant to injury potential. The other aspect is the impact energy, which is where a piece can truly outperform others in the testing. The more impact energy a piece can handle while bring ing the residual force levels below the threshold of r injury, the better, and true "exceeding" of the standard. That comes into play with the Cambridge high-performance standard for impact protectors which uses up to 100Joules for testing, along with the more convservative 25kN level for passing. When considering those levels of impact severity, the drop test that Wayne describes doesn't do anything to show their armor as being better, and in fact, it's a pathetically weak test that offers very little insight into the range of effectiveness of the armor as the impact energy used is so low. It also doesn't show any sort of meaningful comparison between other options, and the use of the ideas of better or exceeding are misplaced entirely.

    The attempts at coverage area seem great, but it simply doesn't matter if the armor is not up to snuff. There is no "something is better than nothing" when a threshold for injury exists. EIther the stuff manages the energy down to noninjurious levels or it doesn't. IF the impact energy is too sever for the range of usefulness of the foam, you are wearing a brick that will transmit 100% of the force to the body, and if the force transmission levels are too high even within the range of severity the foam will work in, then you wil lstill be injured. The padding must be shown to work at the impact energies within a crash and manage that energy to provide force transmission that is lower than what will cause injury. Unfortunately, no interpretation by Wayne in this thread or anywhere else describes their armor's ability to actually perform like something with CE certification to the EN1621-1 standard or any other like the Cambrdige standard. When you get into the torso area, this becomes of greater importance as well, as the threshold for injury is much lower, at only 4kN to break ribs, so any options covering this area(front or back) must be made much thicker to reduce similar impact severities to lower levels of force on the body. There's not a whole lot of choice within motorcyclist-specific clothing that gets it right here either, but there's a few threads on that floating around on here as well with more info.

    I hope Wayne finds more info and stays intersted in providing real advantages and real safety benefits for his products. There is a lot of value in the CE tests and the other issues brought up by ldbandit76 in this thread that should be used for scrutiny of all players, no matter how big or small. Thanks to Wayne for participating, but I truly hope the discussion brings about truly better products and better knowledge on both sides.
    #50
  11. stronty

    stronty n00b

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    I just had a get off wearing my Motoport Stretch Kelvar jacket, a car made a left hand turn right in front of me at an intersection, all I saw was headlights coming towards me, I quickly grabbed the brakes of my DL650 and almost immediately the bike went down, my upper shoulder hit first, then my chest and my helmet finally hit once my torso was on the ground. My knee was the last body part to hit, I was only wearing jeans. I can honestly say the my upper shoulder and chest did not feel the impact, not until a day later did I feel a slight ache in my shoulder, but I could still easily swing my arm around. The motoport only shows some small traces of black asphalt embedded in the fibers and absolutly no signs of abrasion(I didn't slide much) if you didn't look closely you wouldn't even know it hit the pavement. My knee wasn't as lucky, my jeans were scuffed badly at the knee and I got a good abrasion at the knee that will take a few weeks to heal, it's been a little tough bending my knee and walking the last few days. I should have been wearing my motoport pants.

    I think my speed was between 20 and 30 mph before I stomped the brakes, the Caribou saddlebags absorbed most of the bike's impact energy and kept the bike from sliding very far. I'm most impressed with how my upper torso/shoulder did not feel this impact, while my knee got banged up .
    #51
  12. ikonoklass

    ikonoklass Kountersteering Krew

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    After 12 weeks of waiting for my Motoport gear to show up, FedEx came to deliver it on Wednesday, which was, coincidentally, my 40th birthday. But Wayne required a signature, and no one was home, so here I sit two days later without my gear. Best of all, they won't let me come pick it up until tomorrow. :puke1
    #52
  13. license2ill

    license2ill Banned

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    I do find it a bit ironic that Wayne cites the China card with other manufacturers as being an issue of convenience, when the wait times for Motoport gear are running in the 3 month range.
    #53
  14. ikonoklass

    ikonoklass Kountersteering Krew

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    This just in: Gear arrived this morning and awaits me at home. Maiden voyage will be Sunday, right after the race.:D I CAN'T WAIT!!!
    #54
  15. slipknot

    slipknot Hello Girls

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    I had to take instructions over the phone and they made a Kevlar mesh touring suit that fit exactly as they said. It is the best on the market. Materials, design and service. And I've owned a lot of different suits from cordura to leather to deerskin and waxed cotton. It was a bit of a wait but they are playing custom tailor to riders from all over the world. Anyone else that dedicated? Anyone know of a stronger material than Kevlar? That one can tolerate to wear? How many custom tailors can you name? It may be a good thing the website is a C or even a D for the anal amongst us or they would have to change their business model to the industry standard, i.e., it might fit, it might work, don't ask for more 'cause you can't have it.
    #55
  16. PizzaHog

    PizzaHog Thought Criminal

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    Per Wayne: "We use our company in China that we have worked with for over 30 years. They use our materials and assemble the apparel." I take this to mean the clothing is manufactured to Motoport's specs in China, but they're supported and repaired by Motoport USA in San Diego. So, if you bought, say, a Finnish product manufactured in China, and you live in North/South America, you'd still have to send your stuff all the way to Finnland for repairs or mods.

    Motoport's custom-made stuff (like my pants) can take 10-12 weeks to arrive; off-the-shelf stuff (like my jacket) comes within a week.

    Why are some folks so hung up on CE standards? Why aren't those same folks focused on Motoport's certifications from FIM, AMA and/or WERRA?

    I asked this before license2ill's recent entry: "3. BKS' suits also meet the "Cambridge Standard" - what does this claim mean, and what is the value of this claim? That it can debate well in several languages?" Why should I care what this Cambridge Standard is if the people using it to dissect Motoport gear won't explain it? Or, put another way, why should Wayne explain himself if you won't explain yourself?

    "I hope Wayne finds more info and stays intersted in providing real advantages and real safety benefits for his products. There is a lot of value in the CE tests and the other issues brought up by ldbandit76 in this thread that should be used for scrutiny of all players, no matter how big or small. Thanks to Wayne for participating, but I truly hope the discussion brings about truly better products and better knowledge on both sides.

    Yah - good luck with that. :loco
    #56
  17. license2ill

    license2ill Banned

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    I guess I'll write up yet another thread, but I'll share a little here too. For what it's worth, Ldbandit76 has definitely read my posts regarding those issues, and shows a great understanding of the information, though he has been emotionally attched to some purchases and resistant to some of the info too. The CE standards are meaningful, the rest fo the crap regarding race orgs and track is meaningless, as there are no track orgs that provide any menaingful performance standards for clothing or protective values. That's a political statement more than anything of value, and doesn't tell us anything. It's fine if an informed or more likely uninformed race org will let you wear one piece or another, but it doesnt say anything real about it's effectiveness. CE and Cambridge standards are clear. I think you just need to read more about these issues. I've provdied many a link and interpretation in the past about it, and will continue. I'll try to another thread regarding it.

    I have a copy of the Cambridge Standard(.doc), but I don't think you'll really get much out of it before you fall asleep in the techinical details. The Cambridge standard is similar to the CE requirements, but it is jsut a voluntary perfromance standard for protective clothing for motorcyclists, jsut like Snell for helmets vs DOT. In typical fashion, the voluntary standard is a little more stringent in it's requirements and values. I beleive the BKS suits are all CE-approved as a whole to the Level 2, high-performance requirments for CE-approval of whole garments for motorcyclist use. The impact protectors used by BKS, and made by T-Pro are not only CE-approved, but also Cambridge-approved under their stricter requirements. For impact protectors for the limbs, the CE standard, which is the EU law requirements only has one level of passing. The Cambrdige standard is stricter and provides a mark for higher-performance pieces. Same thing goes for suits, the CE standard for whole suits offers a level 1 and level 2, and the Cambridge and SATRA standards are considered addtional higher-performance options for better protection due to their stricter requirement for coverage and protective values within the basic aspects and areas of a suit.

    I just don't see any reason trying to back the status quo that provides only resistance to new ideas, to real information(can't even ask for better information), and gives you an attitude for asking harder questions. In the end, these are asafety issues. I'm not worried about repairs going to Europe, that's the least of your concerns when it comes to shelling out money for a real protective soluions and your hopes. I'm interested in hard evidence of efficacy, not anecdotes or bs. That's not jsut a Motoport gripe, it's industry-wide, and the reason it's industry wide is because the community allows it and defends it.
    #57
  18. Bimjo

    Bimjo Crashes at zero speed...

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    So, just out of curiousity, what're you wearing license2ill?
    #58
  19. Wayne at Motoport

    Wayne at Motoport Been here awhile

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    You completely ignore the statements I've made in the past on this thread. Motoport/Cycleport has performed more studies on motorcycle apparel than any other company or country!! Did you ever read our web site? All of the time you wasted on the above statements mean nothing in the real world. Wearing the apparel, crashing in the apparel, and the injuries that occur are what is important. FACT: WE PROVIDE THE WORLD MOST VERSATILE/PROTECTIVE MOTORCYCLE APPAREL IN THE WORLD! We have been making motorcycle apparel all over the world since 1965. Thousands of riders have crashed in our gear. THIS IS THE REAL WORLD. You come on this thread as an expert. Please explain your background. Since you are the medical expert, armor engineer, material expert, please tell me what motorycle apparel is better.

    Regards,
    Wayne Boyer
    President Motoport/Cycleport USA
    #59
  20. Wayne at Motoport

    Wayne at Motoport Been here awhile

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    We have inventory of our best selling jackets. The Ultra II Air Mesh Kelvar (3/4 length) and Air Mesh Kevlar Jackets. (waist cut) If the size and color is in stock we can send it out the same day. If we build apparel it averages 2 weeks for rain gear, 11 to 12 weeks for jackets/pants.
    #60