Destroyed clutch (maybe not only it). Time to fix and upgrade

Discussion in 'Dakar champion (950/990)' started by melk, Mar 12, 2019.

  1. melk

    melk Been here awhile

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    I had nice time riding on tank training grounds in sand, and overheated and destroyed my clutch. You
    can see amount of damage in attached photos.

    So in general i need to replace full clutch basket: inner/outer hubs, clutch rings. Everything. And i hope engine not damaged.

    And i think to go to rekluse clutch (i still have OEM slave cylinder, so will be small upgrade).
    General question is what exact Rekluse package contains and what OEM parts it replaces. Can anyone share their experience about what is left after setting up Rekluse RadiusX clutch?

    Attached Files:

    #1
  2. melk

    melk Been here awhile

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    And more photos of broken clutch

    Attached Files:

    #2
  3. melk

    melk Been here awhile

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    I'm not sure how it happened. I was riding offroad, but not hard. In general it was quite easy ride. Some sand, but it is wet and cold sand with nice grip.
    I think leaking clutch master added problems. Maybe my clutch was already damaged somehow, and in the middle of the ridding i found that almost all fluid flowed out from master cylinder. So i left without working clutch lever.
    I knew about leakage, but it required to add fluid every 1000 miles or maybe 100 miles offroad, and i did not thought that anything will happen during 35 miles ride. But it happened.

    Also i think my ride back to the road from where i can evacuate bike was not good for clutch and engine. But now waiting for more detailed checks and hope everything else will survive.
    #3
  4. gearheadE30

    gearheadE30 @LC8Adventures Supporter

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    Wow! I can't believe you got it hot enough to melt the aluminum like that and blue all the steel parts with oil running over it. I've seen blown and slipping clutches before, but never anything on that level. I don't think the leak would have done it - that clutch basically had to have been slipping, or maybe you were using it too aggressively. I'm not sure how experienced you are in sand, but you basically don't use the clutch and use RPM/wheelspin instead because it will get so hot trying to put power down. The heat was almost definitely caused by clutch slip because there is basically nothing else that can heat up the basket enough to do that. Even spinning/galling/locking up the bearing wouldn't transmit enough heat to the basket to do that before the engine seized completely. It is also possible that you were not getting oil flow to the clutch, so it wasn't getting any (or much) cooling, combined with slipping excessively.

    the leaking clutch controls would not have caused that. When the slave/master seals leak, you end up with a fully engaged clutch rather than a slipping, disengaged one. The only exception would be if the piston in the slave cylinder got cocked and did not release all the way. If you pull the piston out of the slave, you would be able to see galling and a wear lip if this was the case.

    If you have an aftermarket slave cylinder, it's also possible you hit the wear limit of the clutch and bottomed out the slave. The pistons in the aftermarket slaves are thicker, so they bottom earlier when the fibers wear to about the middle of the limit in the service manual, eventually causing the clutch to slip. I suppose if you're not careful you might not notice in the sand. The fix is an additional clutch steel, and then you can use up the rest of the wear limit in the fibers before it bottoms out again.

    At the very least, like you said, you need all of the clutch parts. Considering how hot it got (the basket nut and booster are blue!!!), I'd be a little worried that you damaged the heat treat on the transmission main shaft. Take a careful look at that and the bearing supporting that shaft; if it also got that hot, it will have tightened up and galled its races.

    I personally would recommend getting OEM clutch parts and fixing it properly, including the slave/master leak. A Rekluse is not a fix as there isn't anything inherently wrong with the stock parts, but this would be a good time to put one in if you really want one. That said, it is not something I really ever recommend vs. developing clutch control.

    Your oil temperature had to have been incredibly high when this happened. It would not surprise me if this did lasting damage to plastic parts in the engine (cam chain sliders, for example) as well as damage to the plain bearings that the cams/rods/etc turn on due to loss of viscosity and shear capability. There is no way to know without taking stuff apart and checking it visually.
    #4
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  5. uk_mouse

    uk_mouse Aquatic adventurer

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    Pretty sure i have a spare clutch in a box somewhere. PM me if you're interested.

    By the way, sorry if it seems I'm always trying to sell bits of KTM, it's just that over the years I've built up a large collection of parts I'll probably never need, and I'd rather they go to someone from advrider than selling them cheap on eBay so someone else can resell them at a profit.
    #5
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  6. melk

    melk Been here awhile

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    Both master and slave cylinders were OEM. I don't think that oil was to hot, temperature sensor never shown more than 11 of 12 bars during engine work. 12 bars were only when i shut it down and fan stopped working (it works for some time, then stops, then temp grow to 12 bars, and then went down. I started engine when temp sensor shown 10 bars).

    About Rekluse, i know that it is not fix. I thought about it, but price is to high compared to regular clutch disks change. But now it is not looks like so high. Just proper time for upgrade.

    I'm not very experienced offroad rider, but i did not noticed any difference with my previous offroad riding. It can be, that my clutch never got enough oil, but now it is impossible to figure out how it became so hot.
    #6
  7. AdamM001

    AdamM001 Been here awhile

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    I also trashed a clutch this month!
    (Not nearly as bad as THAT, though!)

    - broke one fiber disk in the middle of the pack (sticking on the “ears”, I guess ?) during a hill climb, which prevented the stack from engaging.. then broke the anti-rotation pin off of the piston rod.
    IMG_2061.jpg
    Pressure plate was too hot to touch, even after an hour of ‘air-cooling’ ! IMG_2201.jpg IMG_2200.jpg

    Any long-term feedback on Barnett clutch kit? - fiber/steel disks and springs only? (All threads on that topic are a bit dated)

    I was going to try the cheaper Outlaw Racing kit (ORC177) - but seem to be out of stock everywhere. ..perhaps they don’t make it anymore?

    Forum feedback seems to suggest avoiding the EBC kit..
    #7
  8. Rharr

    Rharr Been here awhile

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    This was posted on here a while back maybe it can help

    "Here's a list of interchangeable clutch plates for a 990 (and the number of plates required). You probably won't find the inner plate on the ktm that is cut to go around the belville washer, but you might be able to find the other fibers locally. I changed to a z1000 set from ebay a couple years ago, working fine still.


    KX125 1994-2005 (7)

    KX250F 2004-2011 (8)

    NINJA 1000 2011 (10)

    Z1000 2003-2008, 2010-2011 (10)

    Z750S 2005-2006 (9)

    ZX-10R 2004-2011 (10)

    ZX-6R 1995-2004 (9)

    ZX-6R 2005-2011 (8)

    ZX-6RR 2003 (9)

    ZX-6RR 2004-2006 (8)

    ZZR600 2005-2008 (9)


    Fits the following KTM models: 950 ADVENTURE 2003-2011 (requires 10, also requires 1 of 301-70-10835)

    950 SUPER ENDURO 2003-2011 (requires 10, also requires 1 of 301-70-10835)

    950 SUPERMOTO 2003-2011 (requires 10, also requires 1 of 301-70-10835)

    990 ADVENTURE 2003-2011 (requires 10, also requires 1 of 301-70-10835)

    990 SUPER ENDURO 2003-2011 (requires 10, also requires 1 of 301-70-10835)

    990 SUPERMOTO 2003-2011 (requires 10, also requires 1 of 301-70-10835)


    Fits the following Suzuki models: GSX-R1000 2001-2004 (10)

    GSX-R1000 2005-2008 (requires 9, also requires 1 of 301-70-10835)

    GSX-R600 2006-2007 (requires 7, also requires 1 of 301-70-10835)

    GSX-R600 2008-2009, 2011 (requires 8, also requires 1 of 301-70-10835)

    GSX-R750 2006-2009, 2011 (requires 8, also requires 1 of 301-70-10835)

    RM125 1992-2007 (8)

    RM-Z250 2004-2011 (8)"
    #8
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  9. mytmav

    mytmav bike & fourby junky

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    I bet you were slipping the clutch a bit in the sand, riding it like a 2 smoker, the springs get a bit hot and then they start slipping as you ride aggressively
    #9
  10. gearheadE30

    gearheadE30 @LC8Adventures Supporter

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    Wow, I don't think I've ever seen a fiber break like that before either. This is a thread of firsts for me, haha.

    No experience on the 950/990, but on smaller dirt bikes I have had issues with non-stock clutches being sensitive to temperature and the engagement point/behavior moving around until it was all warmed up. I've never had that happen with factory parts before. This was only on a couple non-KTM bikes though - all of my current KTMs have original clutches. 200 XCW at 380 hours, 450EXC at 370 hours, FC450 at 110 hours, and 950 adv at 88k miles. They hold up great if you don't abuse them too much.
    #10
  11. tinwelp

    tinwelp Professional Idiot

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    Hang on... if you've lost your clutch fluid, the clutch will be engaged... and the booster should reinforce that engagement under power. Obviously neither of these happened as the clutch was clearly slipping for a long time to cause that amount of damage, so something was stopping the engagement in the first place. Or a worn-out booster didn't do it's job. Was the slip not apparent when riding on-road? Nonetheless, this is impressive! I've never seen a melted basket!

    To recover, you may just get away with replacing the whole clutch, and the slave... and probably the master too. You could probably find a complete one at a breaker's yard, or take up UK-mouse's fine offer. Personally I'd steer away from a Rekluse, but I prefer a manual clutch.

    Cheers... Paul
    #11
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  12. melk

    melk Been here awhile

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    I found used basket in Poland, and already ordered it, aswell as Outer Hub here in Ukraine. And PM'ed UK-mouse. So in general i think clutch question is closed. Just need to wait for parts.
    Also i'm not sure about Rekluse for now, it is quite expensive. And if all i need will be just disks, then probably i'll go that way.

    Now waiting for engine disassembly, to understand amount of damage done to engine, and clear everything.

    I did not noticed anything wrong with clutch before. I have experience riding with slipping clutch on other motorcycle, so i know how it feels when clutch almost end.

    What i'm sure, that i'll go for Oberon clutch slave (or Rekluse one) and new clutch master. Also it is good time to apply water pump rebuild kit, because it already removed and anyway i need all new gaskets, so no reason to use OEM.
    I hope new clutch master won't leak, but will see.
    #12
  13. skuikka

    skuikka Been here awhile

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    One of the clutch booster pilars is broken, so you have lost 1/6th of the spring force squeeshing the pack together. This would explain slipping, and has happened before, according to the "search" function.
    The slipping explains the heat, alltough, you probably made a world record in clutch grilling. Congrats :)
    #13
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  14. skuikka

    skuikka Been here awhile

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    Question: was the top friction plate somehow united with the pressure plate? That could explain why the tips of the clutch basket are broken off. I do not think they have melted, the round shape is likely a result of being spun around inside the clutch cover for a while. It has been hot nevertheless, the blue color on the steel parts needs over 300 Celsius degrees of heat to show up. That high temp drops the tensile strenght of aluminium alloys alot.
    #14
  15. melk

    melk Been here awhile

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    I did not checked clutch booster for about 30k. So seems that's my fault. Need to be more attentive about my bike. It probably can be damaged and even broken for some time
    #15
  16. DirtyADV

    DirtyADV Long timer

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    Worn "fingers" on the edge of the outer basket that gave up?

    Clutch might still work?

    As for the missing post in the booster is that broken or just came undone when loosening the clutch plate bolts? Have had that happen but just reinstalled with strong loctite.


    /Johan
    #16
  17. KTM Mike

    KTM Mike Long timer

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    Wow - that is a toasted clutch!

    It sounds like you decided against the Rekluse - but for the sake of others that might read this, I have a Rekluse in my 2007 990. Ive logged roughly 10 to 12,000 miles on it. To your original question, what does the Rekluse kit include - its all the clutch plates, the Rekluse "base unit" (thats where the Rekluse magic happens) and stainless steel inserts that go over the fingers of the clutch basket and adjustable slave cylinder. It does not include pressure plate, inner or outer clutch baskets.

    I absolutely love using the Rekluse . I did burn up a Rekluse due to weak clutch springs, two up with full camping luggage in deep deep sugar sand. If you install a Rekluse - replace the clutch springs - I went with EBC heavy duty springs. Once that was done, its been fantastic. I absolutely love knowing know matter how ham fisted I get when i am tired and worn out, the bike wont stall. Big help in rocky hills where momentum is critical.
    #17
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  18. melk

    melk Been here awhile

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    Thanks for information. Right now it is more financial question. Rekluse kit will cost me about 1000$ instead of around 300 for disks + oberon slave.
    And as i still need to open and check whole engine, repair will be quite expensive. So it seems Rekluse will wait for next time.
    #18
  19. uk_mouse

    uk_mouse Aquatic adventurer

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    If you need clutch friction plates, do a search on here, you can get kawasaki (I think) plates that fit and are half the price of KTM.
    #19
  20. uk_mouse

    uk_mouse Aquatic adventurer

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    #20