Dl650 Hack

Discussion in 'Hacks' started by brstar, Dec 26, 2010.

  1. brstar

    brstar Long timer

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    [​IMG]

    So while the excavation of workshop extensions continue (using a shovel and wheelbarrow) to house as it turned out my mates home handyman equipment and left overs.
    He meanwhile is playing grey nomads and doing the great Australian lap with a 4WD and caravan.
    Today I was able to brush of the (literal) cobwebs and kick the spider off the sidecar (literally).

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    Did a lot of measuring and sketchy sketching.

    Why did Suzuki offset the brake disks from the wheel center line?
    24mm on the right side as against 21mm on the left.
    Why did I even consider such a crazy idea?
    There where quite a few more questions as well.

    Sticking point at the moment is the triumph axle mounting lugs only have 152mm between them as against the Suzuki ones being 170mm apart.
    The crux of the problem is the speedo drive.
    It stick out 20mm past the brake disk.
    It sticks out 20mm past the disk on the left side.
    It therefore would push the wheel 8mm offset to the right.
    Any clues as to how this would affect steering????????
    Me tinks not that much though it could induce giant chuckawobbles.
    Discard the speedo?
    Fit the speedo to the sidecar wheel?
    Even though its a Strom wheel it does not seem setup for this type of speedo.
    Maybe an ABS wheel?
    The last solution is to grind stuff away.
    Not so sure about reducing the axle mounting lugs at all.
    To swap the chair wheel with the bike would involve swapping the wheel bearings over as well.
    Which would most likely mean two news sets of wheel bearings.
    I changed the chair bearings so they fit a 20mm axle instead of the 17mm of the Suzuki.
    Oh on another note I ordered from Bangood in China a set of drill bits.
    More specifically I wanted a 17mm bit to drill bushes and spacers etc for the 17mm axle.
    Local price $48.50, Bangood $13.83 delivered
    Trying to plan ahead and be clever I decided to order a set.
    1 @14mm
    1 @ 15mm
    1 @ 16mm
    1 @ 17mm
    1 @ 18mm

    What I got was this

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    Yep 2 16's and no 17.
    They at least respond to emails.
    Their last communication was an offer to refund the $13.83.
    Nice yes but I'm hoping to get past the Chinglish to the point they send an actual 17mm bit ( that's a Morse taper bit).
    A refund is fine just means I have to order again while waiting another 2 weeks or so.
    Will see how it goes

    [​IMG]

    The new axle.
    We only had coarse thread dies 16 x 2mm ( both of us) so there you go with maybe a Nylock to keep it on plus a split pin to be sure to be sure.


    [​IMG]

    So much for the free space.
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  2. WILL_S

    WILL_S OUTLAW POSTIE 001

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    I am no expert . I do believe the offset won't affect anything . I did have a bloke point out how my postie wheels front to back are offset and how the euro blokes are doing this with there sidecars to aid in handling. To what affect I don't know
    Bangood is good for lathe tooling bits etc . I brought that drill set locally and it had the 17 :D must of paid the $$$ for the quality control :lol3
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  3. steam powered

    steam powered just a regular punk

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    Yes, the 8mm offset will affect your handling, and very badly. Because there is only 1 steering wheel, it will always find its neutral position when the centre of the contact patch is directly behind the steering axis. If you move the wheel 8mm away from the sidecar (and using 60mm trail) you will induce 7.6 degrees of toe out in the front wheel.

    I'm pretty sure this is how some of the fat tyred euro rigs are being set up instead of using lean out, although with much less offset and toe out

    More if you are interested.
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  4. ErictheBiking

    ErictheBiking Been here awhile

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    When the K bike speedo gave up, I used a bicycle digital speedo. Easy as.
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  5. brstar

    brstar Long timer

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    Upon re measuring the axle lead it only reduces trail by 35mm.
    Had it in mind it was closer to 45mm but that was years ago.
    Still the forks are here and the gain would be real.
    It would reduce trail from 150mm to 115mm.
    Making it easily rideable sans sidecar.


    Thanks for the input there, very useful.
    I feel a bit in over my head here but feel if I take it steady all will work out.

    [​IMG]
    I tend to look measure, codgitate then walk away for a while.

    The offset of the Suzuki disks made me keep an eye out for more offsets.
    Seems the Triumph forks are equal distant offset caliper lugs.
    But the axle lugs are, or more correctly the left axle lug is 4mm to the left in relation to the right one.
    More measuring and it seems the wheel would only be offset 5mm to the right.

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    So if I cut this lug down flush it would only be 1mm offset.... I think that would make about 1/2 a deg toe out to the right.
    And I would still have the speedo.
    Will see.
  6. steam powered

    steam powered just a regular punk

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    Half a degree sounds much better. It should allow you to reduce your lean out.

    I think when you add lean out to a tug, it is the moving of the contact patch outboard of the steering axis that makes the difference rather than the positive camber of the wheel.

    If my maths is correct, the toe out on the front wants to be about 1.5 times the toe in on the sidecar. Toe in on sidecars seems to be about 0.5 - 0.8 degrees
  7. brstar

    brstar Long timer

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    Oh and Bangood offered me an 18mm drill bit instead of the 17mm I really need.
    Saying they have plenty in stock.
    Does that mean they are out of 17mm drill bits???
    My email response was angling towards terse though still polite.
    I asked for I think the 3rd time for them to send me the missing 17mm drill bit.
    Will see.
    Cheers
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  8. redfishguide

    redfishguide Old Dirt Biker Supporter

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    Hey brstar, during my way to many interweb ramblings I have come across quite a few offset wheel alignments involving stock motorcycles. Though can't offer any advice as to the effects on your project.
    However there are numerous electronic solutions to the speedo issues available to you.

    Good luck with your endeavors.

    Jack and Buck
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  9. redfishguide

    redfishguide Old Dirt Biker Supporter

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    Couldn't think of it before (something about old age I suspect) but Vapor is one of them.

    Jack and Buck
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  10. brstar

    brstar Long timer

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    [​IMG]

    Decided a template would work to transfer the caliper mounts to the Triumph forks.
    Made a steel bush seeing as I could on the lathe so as not to chew up the stock Ali caliper mounts with the drilling.
    Rang a bloke about making longer brake lines to get a price.
    Will take it to him on Tuesday.
    At that point I would be committed.

    @redfishguide I seem to be able to keep the stock speedo pickup.
    It would be better seeing the Mileage etc is all in the plastic dash board.
    To much to change.
    The other expense here is heavier springs.
    Maybe 50 percent heavier than stock?
    Or should we get scientific and do calcumalations?
    The Triumph forks seem very soft.
    Any suggestions about taking the fork caps of without pain involved??
    I may make a specific widget.
    Be handy to put heavier springs in anyway.
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  11. redfishguide

    redfishguide Old Dirt Biker Supporter

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    Me and Buck have the painful methods dialed in real good :kurt:shog So we're gonna keep an eye on this and see if we can learn something a little easier. Unfortunately we don't have no stinkin widgets. Besides I don't think my definition of a widget is quite getting thru to Buck...

    Jack and Buck
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  12. brstar

    brstar Long timer

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    [​IMG]

    I may have to pull the calipers of the bike to make this work.
    That is to see what angle to run them at to clear the original mounts.
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  13. brstar

    brstar Long timer

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    Did a run down to the local brake specialist/manufacturer.
    He said about $250 for new and longer brake lines.
    Seems OK to me.

    Pulled the fork springs out of the triumph forks to see if I could learn a bit.
    Pictured are the larger (soft) Triumph springs and some much smaller XS650 Yamaha springs.

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    Maybe one way to make heavier springs.
    Just need to support and keep them separate.
    Anyone done this?

    The fork cap and the spring pre load/spacer are to the left.
    The spacer looks distinctively like a piece of 35mm fork tube.

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    Exploded diagram (boom)

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    Need the sidecar to pick up some colourbond sheets for the gates on Saturday else I would pull the forks today.
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  14. redfishguide

    redfishguide Old Dirt Biker Supporter

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    Less coil's equals stiffer springs.....at least so I have been told. But that would apply to an existing spring. I can say that I messed with some Yam xs 650 springs and that formula would apply. However in my opinion suspension is a black art which Buck and I will never master. Done and gone for now.

    Jack Brown
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  15. brstar

    brstar Long timer

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    Dark art indeed Jack.
    Did some measuring.
    I happen to have 2 sets of XS springs.
    The bit that seems relevant is the diameter of the wire and the space between the coils.
    Giving the amount of travel available before they bind.
    No good if the coils clash apon being compressed long before the suspension travel runs out.

    At the 215mm actual travel of the Triumph forks over the spring length of 545mm there is still 320mm of space left between the coils.
    The old Yam springs are wound much tighter.
    If I run them up through the 120mm spacer at the top and even into the fork cap recess I get about 675mm 250mm available travel.
    I rang Shock treatment over East ( their all over East here).
    The heaviest spring for that fork is .8KG/mm, whatever that is in the English language.
    He did say the stock springs are .38KG/mm so that's a goodly difference.
    Leaning towards replacing springs.
    At $220 delivered.
    Will wait till I have a definate mounting setup for the brake calipers.
    Which means pulling all the brake system of the bike so as to put them in situ.
    After the weekend.
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  16. steam powered

    steam powered just a regular punk

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    5A2226.jpg

    From here - http://www.startline.org.uk/slol26/springs.htm

    I know you are not keen on mathematics, however suspension is really all about the numbers. The information comes from the world of race cars, however springs are springs and wheel frequency is the same regardless of whether there is 3 wheels or 4
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  17. brstar

    brstar Long timer

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    Hmm springs and wheel frequency.
    Good way to start a conversation.
    Imperial was the language here till I left school. 47yrs ago. Then it went to multiples of ten.
    Not having used mathematics beyond the basics I am not overly confident.
    But I can still learn apparently.
    It takes. 0.8KG to compress the spring a millimetre.
  18. steam powered

    steam powered just a regular punk

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    Or 448 lb/in if that makes more sense. Google is really good at converting from metric to imperial and vice versa when you need to.

    The formulas on the linked page will allow you find the spring rate of the various springs you have. Accuracy counts when measuring the spring, particularly the diameter of the wire.

    Some basics about springs

    If you cut a spring you increase the spring rate and decrease maximum travel before coil bind
    If you stack 2 springs you decrease the spring rate and increase travel
    If you nest 2 springs you increase the spring rate (add the 2 rates together), travel is limited to whichever one has the least

    I hadn't started school when you left so I normally use metric
  19. redfishguide

    redfishguide Old Dirt Biker Supporter

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    Okay remember Buck and I are hope less when it comes to suspension geometry....but one thing I can add when I was messing with the XS 650 springs. The tighter wound portion of the XS spring was actually the softer part of a progressive wound spring.

    When we were working to increase tension on my XS outfit I removed a section of the softer area (tighter wound) spring to actually stiffen my suspension.

    Okay Buck just gave me a look which I interpret to mean that I should STFU since I already have indulged everything I know about springs as they relate to suspension.

    So I stand mute (thanks dog!!!!)

    Jack and Buck
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  20. redfishguide

    redfishguide Old Dirt Biker Supporter

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    Just a thought.....if the XS springs actually fit....why not keep messing with them until they start to feel right. Then you could bring them to a spring dude to make up for your application.

    I know....Buck is snickering in the background....but hell I am offering any way.

    Jack and Buck
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