Electric Grom accelerates quicker than gas Grom

Discussion in 'Electric Motorcycles' started by voltsxamps, May 24, 2016.

  1. syncro87

    syncro87 Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2014
    Oddometer:
    193
    Location:
    Lee's Summit, Missouri

    This would be the deal breaker to me.

    I'd have no problem owning an electric motorcycle. I can think of plenty of disadvantages to liquid petroleum fuel and ICEs that I'd be happy to get rid of. 38 mile range though...not even close to what I'd deem acceptable.

    Two big speed bumps to me owning an electric at this time...

    First, I'd probably want at least 100 miles of range, minimum. That would give me enough of a buffer to where every ride wouldn't be full of range anxiety, or constantly mentally fixating on how much I had left. I don't necessarily want to have to plan every trip down to the smallest detail to make sure I can get home. There is a lot to be said to being able to ride where you want, when you want, with deviations from your plan, sans worrying about range.

    Second, I'd want to be able to recharge quickly. Right now, if I'm in a hurry to get somewhere and am low on fuel, I can be fueled up and back on the road in 5 minutes with gas. I'd be willing to accept longer fueling times with electric, but it would be a concern. If it took an hour to get back up to 100%, that would be too long.

    If you run flat out for 38 miles and totally deplete your battery, how long does it take you to charge back up to full?

    Actually, there would be a third issue I just thought of. How often do I have to replace batteries, and how expensive would that be as an ongoing expense?
    #21
  2. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2016
    Oddometer:
    1,679
    Location:
    +positively grounded-
    All very good points syncro87!

    I have the low-tech and inexpensive SLA batteries in my bike, so it takes about 4.5 hours for an 85+% charge and 5.5 hours to float charge to 100% from full depletion. An upgrade to lithium batteries with the same capacity rating can take less than 1 hour with a high C rate and adds numerous benefits over sealed lead acid:

    • 2/3 lighter and more energy dense
    • ~5x faster charging
    • deeper flatter discharge for more range & speed
    • ~5x longer charge cycles
    • optional J1772 quick charge station capable
    Disadvantages of lithium are, however, it's higher price.. about 5x more for the same capacity, but it's a wash since they last about 5x longer.

    With proper charging, my SLA's will start to show capacity loss around 100 charge cycles, but can still retain 2/3rd of their original capacity around 200 cycles. By it's 300th charge cycle, they typically have about half their original range. SLA's are heavy, take longer to charge, have a shorter lifespan, and shallower depth of discharge, but their one main advantage is they are dirt cheap at about $30/battery x6 batteries (or 8 in my case) which is how these clones can be purchased at such a low price ($1100).

    SLA's other advantage are capable of higher discharge rates over lithium, providing a higher amp output (faster motor speed) but the trade off is faster discharge (shorter range). My recommendation to those who want/need more range, like yourself, is to only go with a lithium powered bike (or swap out the SLA's with lithium in the case of these inexpensive clones).

    Range on a modern lithium powered motorcycles are up to 200 miles of range per charge, and start at $7000 on up, after state/fed/dealer tax incentives and rebates. I'm comfortable purchasing an SLA powered bike knowing it's range limitations, for three reasons:

    1. It's super inexpensive to buy and ride out the door
    2. It's easy and inexpensive to add speed & range with SLA
    3. Swapping in higher performing lithium batteries is straightforward and simple.
    Still, electric won't be for everyone. Even the best tech in battery/charging means recharging takes much longer than putting petrol in the tank. For continuous adventuring, it means either long stops every 200 miles, or relying on a battery swap network like gogoro is proposing for the entire planet. Another solution is obviously super fast charging, that companies like Tesla are currently developing, to top off in about the same time as pulling into the pump.

    I used to spend a lot of time at the drag strip when I was into outfitting big block motors with superchargers and so on. Electrics are similar in a way. Top fuel dragsters would accelerate at tremendous speeds burning up fuel at up to 11 gallons/second, trading off range for speed. I think of my bike as the same, being able to accelerate at twice the speed of its gas twin, but trading off range to do so. Having range and speed is like having time and money. It's usually one or the other, but just like in life, each of us have to find the balance of both that's right for us. :jkam :drink
    #22
  3. EvrythingAwesom

    EvrythingAwesom Long timer

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2016
    Oddometer:
    1,406
    Location:
    Bahamas


    I was involved in several conversions, during the "lead acid" and "brushed DC motor" and "chain drive" days. They seem eons ago, now, for me. There were numerous problems with "commercial" e-cycles, so those with the skills and equipment built our own, tons in EValbum.com; lots of these went into the garbage, later.

    Then Chinese, Taiwan, and Korean tinkerers (like the ones in Endless Sphere) figured out how to create "non-cogging" AC brushless, gearless, electric motors, circa 2008. More efficient, much more. Hub motors no longer got hot, at any speed.

    Then, good-enough LIFEPO4 batteries in 1/2 Group U1 format (the "26AH" size)with good-enough BMS were tested as "OK" around 2012. More range, almost triple at slow speeds, and could be charged much faster.

    Then, the "new waveform" sine-wave controllers arrived in 2015, that makes lead acid batteries efficient enough.

    Because China makes 40 million a year, these are a compelling buy.
    #23
    voltsxamps likes this.
  4. EvrythingAwesom

    EvrythingAwesom Long timer

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2016
    Oddometer:
    1,406
    Location:
    Bahamas

    In my case, I got rid of gasser 2-wheelers because of the ultimate price: Your life. Breathing tailpipe fumes will shorten your life and ruin your health. Have friends in this condition, right now. Most 2-wheel gassers don't have the 2 or 3 catalytic converters required to clean the exhaust fumes. A Kymco Super-9 has a cat converter, but still failed EPA.

    The "range anxiety" was largely fiction in my head. Now that I've actually used the eGrom a lot, and charge everywhere I stop, I only have "weather anxiety". I can afford a LIFEPO4 charger that is 3X faster, but it is not necessary.

    If you can afford $10K, like the bigger el-motos, get a Zero electric, perhaps. These eGroms and eZuma's are $800-$1400 rides.


    The e-cycle dealers never told me this: The lifespan of a Lithium battery, 8 years potentially, will be shortened if..

    - You charge below 6 Celcius core temperature

    - You store the Lithium battery at over 90% of full for long periods. I get awesome power and range by riding immediately after a charge.

    - Maintenance is crucial: Add Locktite, glue, Liquid Tape to all connections. Re-apply MG Chemical Super Contact Cleaner (or the inferior, imo: DeOxit D100) every six months or less. China-made connectors will have an invisible corrosion film in 12-16 months. (I have a 2008 el-moto, from China, still working fast and strong, except for a broken speedo cable, and SLA's that needed 2 replacements, because they froze while discharged.)


    Don't forget the government incentives for clean-tailpipe el-motos.
    #24
  5. syncro87

    syncro87 Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2014
    Oddometer:
    193
    Location:
    Lee's Summit, Missouri
    200 charge cycles doesn't sound like very many to be losing a third of your capacity.

    re: maintenance. One advantage I would hope to have in going electric would be lower maintenance than a gas bike. No worries about stale gas in tank over winter, carbs gumming, changing engine oil.

    As far as pollution goes, I think our society is so polluted at this point that me going to an ebike would have negligible impact. There are so many flame retardants in furniture, chemicals in food, heck, there are even significant amounts of pharmaceuticals in city water supplies nowadays. I almost feel like we've gone past the point of no return. Nothing I can do will stop the snowball from rolling down the hill at this juncture. My neighbor's riding lawn mower probably emits way more pollutants than my motorcycle.

    Still, the idea appeals to me. When the day comes that I can have an electric bike with decent range, reasonable charging time, and cost that isn't outrageous, I'm in. I have no loyalty to gas engines. If an ebike can be a practical replacement for an ICE bike, I'd own one.
    #25
    voltsxamps and EvrythingAwesom like this.
  6. EvrythingAwesom

    EvrythingAwesom Long timer

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2016
    Oddometer:
    1,406
    Location:
    Bahamas

    You can save yourself from health risks!

    I have a 50-year-old friend from Northern China who has skin, teeth, mental clarity of someone 1/2 the age, due to taking traditional Chinese herbs and supplements. Kombucha came from China, originally. It works. ... has more stamina than most people in that age group. (Dr. Mercola's articles are very helpful, but not much on traditional chinese supplements.)

    I was able to out-wrestle all youth wrestlers that were my size, at one wrestling meet, last year. I do not train, or even exercise. However, I spend approximately double, for organic food; and, $200/month on health supplements, most of which are not well-known in the West.

    My drinking water is alkaline, filtered. My shower has 3 chlorine filters. I think sugar is "poison".

    People in my age group are seeing medical doctors 2-4 month. I don't, having invested in alternative-everything.

    Highway pollution is avoidable .. the UK study on the MP's shows the data -- stay on the outmost lane. In a car, you have to shut off all fans, and close your windows (from an old study in UK.)

    I have electronic "cures" for everything from teeth abcess to Lyme disease, that have been proven to work, on me and my friends. See Amazon reviews.

    Even cancer is easily curable. It's all on YouTube, people healing themselves.

    Oh, my hobby is learning and doing how to prolong life -- mine; which, I share with friends and family, some of whom are Western doctors who don't think I'm crazy, since these MD's send their coughing and wheezing kids to me, for cure suggestions, at family gatherings, lol. (Mostly cured by Hydrogen Peroxide spray from a dollar store. This same spray also cleans battery terminals, very well.)

    Your last "negative" was about "range". With EV's, if you go slow, you get 3X the range of going fast. Speed kills .. batteries, too.

    SLA batteries: I have some scooters that were charged at least 500X with little degradation. It all depends on the battery Make/Model, charging rates, charger brand/model. Yup, it's complicated. But, Scott at EVdeals.com has most of the answers on SLA. (My suspicion is that corporations have done what the book, "The Waste Makers" describe .. made batteries die early, and perform much less than they can actually do -- DeafScooter has proven this, in his webpages and many, many video clips.)

    BOTTOM LINE: I'm having great adventures on my el-motos, while lengthening and bettering the quality of my life.
    #26
  7. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2016
    Oddometer:
    1,679
    Location:
    +positively grounded-
    You're absolutely right. 200 charge cycles isn't very many to lose a third, but if we look at it over a course of time, it's better than one might think.

    For example, on avg. I ride 4x/week, each ride using an average of 80% of my capacity. Multiplying 4 x 52 weeks x 80%, I get ~166 charges, or about 15 months of continuous use before I get to this point. Capacity will gradually continue to reduce over time, until I am around half capacity right around the 2 year mark.

    I could continue to use these batteries at half capacity and beyond, but unlikely to do so, as range is already short to begin with. 2 more years with SLA replacements will cost me around $180 for 6 batteries(or in my case, $240 for 8).

    $90/year (less than .25/day) is the average cost for battery replacements, whether it's with SLA or lithium (5x more, but last 5x longer). The only other costs to factor in are:
    1. Cost of electricity
    2. Cost of brake pads
    3. Cost tire replacements
    The last 2 are a given with any bike and are infrequent expenses, depending on how or where you ride.

    The first is relatively inexpensive considering you'll likely be charging it in the evening when Kw/h rates are lowest, and if your fortunate enough to charge at your place of employment, as I do sometimes, your "fuel" is equivalent to free.

    I've previously calculated in another thread that an ICE bike with 100mpg @$3/gal. riding the same distances and frequency as I do will also spend about the same $90/year.

    The real savings is in the initial purchase price of a Zuma/Grom over thier electric clones for 1/4 the price. Even if the cost of replacing and charging batteries is more than gas, the maintenance of ICE easily offsets that.

    A little bit of that savings can be reinvested in the clone to increase range and speed with additional inexpensive SLA batteries or swapping them out for longer lasting, better performing lithium.

    Basically, the trade offs are:

    Gas:

    Pros- longer range, fast refueling
    Cons- higher initial cost, maintenance

    Electric:

    Pros- low initial cost, ~0 maintenance

    Cons- shorter range, slow "refueling"

    And then you have personal preferences. Some prefer the sound of an exhaust.. others prefer the sound of silence. Some like to shift, while others don't. But there is one distinctive advantage in electric's favor that's subjective.. and that's the fun factor in the form of torque. Whether felt in a car, a rollercoaster, or a motorcycle, torque = fun. Electric gives you 100% of it, 100% of the time. Something that can't be fully appreciated on paper, and only when in the driver's seat and a twist of the throttle, does the smile meter register full tilt :D First time I rode an electric bike and drove an electric car, I was hooked.
    #27
  8. RRocket

    RRocket Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2009
    Oddometer:
    391
    Well you're still driving in traffic, so you're still breathing in fumes...unless of course everyone is on e-vehicles.

    And per the EPA, unless you're local utility is using renewable energy and not coal, your e-vehicle can actually be dirtier than its ICE equivalent.
    #28
  9. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2016
    Oddometer:
    1,679
    Location:
    +positively grounded-
    True on both points. Being part of the solution is a start though. As more people use cleaner means of transportation and energy, the less polluted the air and our world is. Yesterday on CNBC, Jay Leno mentioned that we have millions more cars in LA today than we did 30 years ago, but our air is 1/10 as polluted. Credit has to be given to all efforts to reduce emissions. While emissions are cleaner than ever, I'd prefer not to breathe from the end of any ICE exhaust, but considering dead dinosaur juice (and a little ethanol) goes in and very little pollution comes out is a testament of some pretty good engineering. It would be an interesting comparison between the emissions generated from a 50cc bike vs an e-moto, taking into account it's source of electricity.

    California leads the nation in solar, and generates 87% of its electricity from natural gas, nuclear, hydro, wind, and solar, plus I have solar panels on my roof to directly generate a portion of the electricity I and my family use.

    In contrast, West Virginia generates 95% of it's electric energy from coal.

    Mouse over any state to see what how electricity is generated -> https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/power-plants/

    [​IMG]

    Coal was used to produce the vast majority of the nation’s electricity in the late 1980s but now creates one-third with natural gas gaining steadily. Still, coal is the chief source of electricity in 22 states and creates a majority of the electrical power in 14 states: WV, KY, WY, MO, UT, IN, ND, NM, CO, OH, NB, KS, WI, IA.

    One thing to note is the map does not represent the prevalent use of residential solar, especially in the southwest US, and is unaccounted for in the figures.
    #29
  10. EvrythingAwesom

    EvrythingAwesom Long timer

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2016
    Oddometer:
    1,406
    Location:
    Bahamas

    That's not how I do it.

    I usually take a bike street/lane or even cut through parks and back alleys. I'm breathing probably less than 10 million particles per breath; whereas the drivers on 4-lane roads are breathing 40 million particles per breath. (UK study on their MP's.)

    My electricity is not generated from coal. I also own solar panels.
    #30
  11. EvrythingAwesom

    EvrythingAwesom Long timer

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2016
    Oddometer:
    1,406
    Location:
    Bahamas


    I think what you're pointing out, in so many words, is that the ICE-vehicle is inefficient.
    #31
  12. bikeridermark

    bikeridermark Long timer Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2008
    Oddometer:
    4,402
    Location:
    Southern Ohio
    Maybe, but I could cross the country much more quickly with an ICE!
    #32
  13. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2016
    Oddometer:
    1,679
    Location:
    +positively grounded-
    Wasn't my intent. Was merely interpolating the equivalent hp/cc's per 12v battery, related to speed to ascertain how many would be required to meet the federal requirement of 150cc on an electric like ours.

    True.
    #33
  14. EvrythingAwesom

    EvrythingAwesom Long timer

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2016
    Oddometer:
    1,406
    Location:
    Bahamas

    I've owned electric rides since 1998 or so. Years ago, your opinion was correct. Today, travel time by distance is approximately the same, since charging is done while you sleep, mostly Just look at a 3-country adventure tour on a Zero electric motorcycle that is already in AdvRider, in another forum:

    Electric Motorcycle Road Trip: 7,000 miles in 3 countries
    I'm in the midst of riding my Zero SR on an epic road trip and met some guys who recommended I post my adventures to this site. Here's the...
    Post by: Benswing, Jun 16, 2015 in forum: Ride Reports - Epic Rides


    Furthermore, it is quite plain that just going fast results in two undesirable outcomes,
    1) crashes, and
    2) not being able to stop and smell the flowers, on the trip.


    http://www.liveleak.com/browse?q=motorcycle+death


    Adventure on electric motorcycles was made possible largely by companies like QSmotor.

    #34
  15. bikeridermark

    bikeridermark Long timer Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2008
    Oddometer:
    4,402
    Location:
    Southern Ohio
    Didn't say any thing about going fast. Just no way you're going to cover the distance on an electric as quickly as an ICE.
    #35
  16. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2016
    Oddometer:
    1,679
    Location:
    +positively grounded-
    Not yet, but there are two solutions currently in the works to solve the two main problems with EV's:
    1. recharging times take longer than fueling up at the pump
    2. no national/worldwide network of swappable batteries
    Tesla is working on the first: https://chargedevs.com/newswire/tes...arger-cable-could-enable-faster-charge-times/
    Gogoro is creating the second: http://www.cultofmac.com/405419/gogoro-electric-scooter-go-charger-ces-2016/

    While Tesla currently has charging down to as little as 30 minutes from "empty", it had developed a battery swap system a couple years ago that got a depleted Tesla back to full in 90 seconds, and while it worked, it was quite costly and has not expanded outside of California state. Enter gogoro, who makes an electric scooter that utilizes their swappable battery system and have set up 140 charging stations since launching in Taipei last August, each of which is capable of charging eight of the swappable battery packs at at time.

    Seeing how I don't live in Taiwan, here's the news I'm happy about:

    "Gogoro plans to make it to the states this year. To help the company identify smaller cities or towns that might harbor pockets of electric scooter fans, it’s launched the Gogoro Open Initiative, a website that lets potential buyers register their interest.
    Business owners interested in hosting a Go Charger can also enroll and potentially get one for free if Gogoro identifies a market with enough people itching for one of the sleek electric scoots."

    If there were an existing network of charged batteries I could swap out with, and I didn't own of of their scooters, It'd be easy to modify my fairing for quick removal/replacement and swap in fresh batteries on the open road. It may take a while, but it's a smart idea that makes a lot of sense.

    :hmmmmmIn the mean time, I've had this hare-brained idea of having 2 battery packs I can easily switch between with a turn of a switch and while I'm powered by one, the other would be charging onboard via a
    tiny 4-stroke generator from Earthquake. If I've thought this through correctly, this would allow me to travel a good distance before having to stop. For example, flat stacks of lithium would get me ~120 miles @ 60mph in 2 hours. At a high C rate, it's possible to recharge the other depleted set in about the same amount of time, allowing the switch between the two battery packs for the required distance travelled, until the fuel runs out on the generator (8 hours @25% load), for a total of 600 miles before having to put another 1/2 gallon of gas in the generator. @ $3/gal, it's plausible to travel 600 miles on a buck fifty, and get back on the road in minutes.
    #36
  17. EvrythingAwesom

    EvrythingAwesom Long timer

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2016
    Oddometer:
    1,406
    Location:
    Bahamas


    But, why 2 packs? Simultaneously on the emotorcycle? If so, perhaps you are unaware that several people, and even Piaggo, created "hybrid" gas/electric scooters and motorcycles. Details, below.

    One electric techie was riding around with a Taiwan-made electric scooter that looks like a Yamaha Riva, with a Yamaha generator on the deck. He had a giant chain on it, to prevent theft. Worked well enough, charging SLA batteries. He bypassed the generator's DC-to-AC circuitry and charged the pack directly; so, no losses from the DC-to-AC 2X, and having to go through, and carry, a battery charger.

    You'll find at least one on EValbum.com

    Piaggo had some experiemental hybrid scooters in Cologne, IIRC.


    1. Honda’s Building a Hybrid Motorcycle | WIRED
      www.wired.com/2008/09/honda-developin
      Sep 29, 2008 · Honda’s Building a Hybrid Motorcycle. Honda Motor Co., the world’s leading motorcycle manufacturer, is...

    2. SilentHawk Two Wheel Drive Hybrid Electric ...
      gas2.org/2015/01/15/silenthawk-two-wheel-drive-hyb...
      Jan 14, 2015 · DARPA is funding a two wheel drive electric hybrid motorcycle called the SilentHawk that will allow...

    3. Hero's 2WD diesel-electric RNT radically rethinks...
      www.gizmag.com/...hybrid-electric-2wd-motor...
      Hero Motocorp’s presentation of the RNT hybrid turbo-diesel-electric motorcycle prototype at Auto Expo in...
    1. New Developments in Motorcycle Hybrid Engine...
      www.cycleworld.com/.../05/15/motorcycle-hybrid...
      May 14, 2014 · Because space on motorcycles is scarce, there has been little talk of hybrid bikes, which must add...

    2. World's First Hybrid Motorcycle To Launch In India2016 Toyota RAV4 Hybrid: Gas Mileage Review February 10, ... World's First Hybrid Motorcycle To Launch In...

    3. Hybrid 50cc Ultracapacitor Scooter | Hackaday
      hackaday.com/2014/10/27/hybrid-50cc-ultracapacitor-sc...
      Oct 26, 2014 · We’re all familiar with hybrid gas-electric cars these days, but how about a hybrid scooter that uses...
    #37
  18. EvrythingAwesom

    EvrythingAwesom Long timer

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2016
    Oddometer:
    1,406
    Location:
    Bahamas
    Went to a great show, this weekend, photos here, riding my eGrom right up to the box office door, no protests by the security watching me park it beside two bicycles on a bicycle rack. Was wearing padded leathers, mid-calf adventure boots, too, with a Leatt-clone neck "horse" collar, lol.

    As the theatre was close to my range limit, I stopped by a pattie shop, and plugged the charger into an outdoor electric outlet. Only took 15 minutes with my LIFEPO4 5A charger, and got home with 15 kms to spare, and a full tummy. Most importantly, I had a great evening ride, made me feel younger.

    Was also happy about not breathing tailpipe fumes today, after hearing the TEDx talk by Horace Luke.

    I don't let my batteries go below 25% Depth of Discharge (DOD). Doesn't the Tesla's BMS also do something similar?









    2016-06-20 12.07.10.jpg 2016-06-20 19.21.22.jpg 2016-06-20 19.24.33.jpg
    #38
    RCmoto likes this.
  19. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2016
    Oddometer:
    1,679
    Location:
    +positively grounded-
    What’s possible when you upgrade the controller and motor as well :devildog

    #39
    TheChip likes this.
  20. jimmy650

    jimmy650 South Canol Racing Club

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2003
    Oddometer:
    459
    Location:
    Santa Cruz, CA
    #40
    dogsslober and voltsxamps like this.