Electric Motion (EM) Trials Bikes

Discussion in 'Electric Motorcycles' started by motobene, May 3, 2016.

  1. Ditch

    Ditch Long timer

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2004
    Oddometer:
    1,643
    Location:
    abq,nm
    I have put on hold the EM since KTM bought into Gas Gas and will wait to see where they go with the eContact, if anywhere.
    Norman Foley likes this.
  2. mxs

    mxs Adventurer

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2009
    Oddometer:
    33
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    I am having some issues with the new 2016 bike I have bought. It has to do with throttle application. I wonder whether anyone else had an issue with the the bike and Magura pot throttle on it.

    When the bike was new to me, the person I bought it from, admitted that the throttle was acting up. Meaning, it would cut out, or randomly just not provide power until throttle turned half way, so instinctively you ask for more power and at that point the bike would just leap forward all of a sudden. He thought squirting contact/lube into the part where the wire comes in solved the issue. And it kind of did ... until it didn't and throttle started acting up yet again after a week or so of initial riding. The person had some connections with EM, so after some back and forth, he would make EM to send me a new throttle assembly. I put the new throttle on. it worked fine for probably 2-3 hours of riding time, but then the same problem developed. So it's unpleasantly intermittent in nature.

    I put the throttle on the bench, supplied it with +5VDC (external power source not the EM battery) and checked the ohms reading on the wiper contact against ground ... voltage show fine from 0-5V. I wonder how else would you try to test for the fault I describe. I have some other ideas, but would like to hear some of yours first, especially if anyone had the same issue. Has anyone had the throttle completely apart? I cannot find anything online ....

    I don't want to rely on EM, because they exactly have not convinced me so far that they can quickly react and help and there's no real current dealer in my area, I could take the bike to easily. Plus I don't mind learning, as I love to play mechanically with these things.
  3. Larwy

    Larwy Adventurer

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2018
    Oddometer:
    45
    Location:
    Vancouver B.C. Canada
    Perhaps the problem is not in the throttle? But somewheres else? Controller? Just thinking out loud.
  4. mxs

    mxs Adventurer

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2009
    Oddometer:
    33
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    Could be ... I was thinking, how to test the system without the throttle. what would be the easiest way of doing it, so I can rule out the throttle assembly completely. Don't have another regular pot, which I think would be required.

    I was also thinking of the regen button, which is part of the left hand complex switch assembly ... what if the regen button is malfunctioning, shorting? Is that possible you think?
  5. Kyler

    Kyler Geezer

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2007
    Oddometer:
    2,856
    Location:
    Just north of Keedysville, MD
    Contact EM - they are very helpful and will provide tips on how to troubleshoot it - email Manon at manon.zorzi@electric-motion.fr
  6. Larwy

    Larwy Adventurer

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2018
    Oddometer:
    45
    Location:
    Vancouver B.C. Canada
    I am no electrical engineer, but you could follow the wiring from regen and disconnect it, but I would follow Kyler`s advice.
    On another note, has anyone had a success in building a battery for theses bikes?
  7. mxs

    mxs Adventurer

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2009
    Oddometer:
    33
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    Yes, I will shoot them an email, but was hoping to hear that perhaps someone has had the "pleasure" experiencing the same problem etc.

    I don't think you can easily disconnect just the regen button as it's part of the main switch assembly, but I will explore it a bit more.
  8. Kyler

    Kyler Geezer

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2007
    Oddometer:
    2,856
    Location:
    Just north of Keedysville, MD
    I started researching it and got an email from a guy who did make one. See this thread. https://advrider.com/f/threads/em-battery-details.1400645/

    I stopped researching when I got a leftover battery (few hours on it) from EM for $1500.
  9. catfish

    catfish Squidicus Adventurous Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2002
    Oddometer:
    950
    Location:
    Morgan Territory, CA
    mxs, here are some details to help you with your DIY EM issues. My 2016 Escape is out of warranty also, so I have learned it & do all my own work. Same as my other motos. I'm currently working to correct throttle-response issues after adding the Czech eClutch. I'll discuss those in next post.

    The "Cut out" you experience, does it seem like power was simply cut (like closed throttle) & it coasted slowly down in speed, or did it feel like (regen) brakes were applied & slowly more quickly? The first would be a throttle-control issue, the second could be a regen-brake issue.

    [​IMG]
    The controller is a Kelly KEB 48601 and can be purchased online for about $300. Manuals are available also.


    Here is the Kelly recommended wiring options for the KEB 48601 controller.
    [​IMG]

    Here is the actual EM control wiring.

    [​IMG]
    Note on the EM diagram above, that the regen button (left sw cluster), the oem eClutch(sw) if equipped, AND the magnetic tether ALL will short controller pin 10 (Brake SW) to pin 3 (ground) to apply regen braking. This brake function over-rides any throttle input while switch is closed.

    If your cut-out feels like braking, then I'd be looking at the wiring & components above.

    Below is throttle control wiring ONLY. The motor controller connector below-left is the same as connector CM2 in EM diagram above.

    [​IMG]

    The motor controller is designed for 0-5Vdc throttle application. Note the Power Harness AND the map box will never send 5V back to controller because of the voltage-divider effect of the EM power harness/map box to the throttle potentiometer resistance.

    V(CM2, pin3)max=5V*(5400/(800+1600+5400))-0.55V = ~2.9V with Handlebar Map Sw in Map1 position
    V(CM2, pin3)max=5V*(5400/(800+5400))-0.55V = ~3.8V with Handlebar Map Sw in Map2 position

    The 0.55V is the diode voltage drop at ~200-300 uA.

    EM set the programmable 48601 controller to 60% throttle = full power. This means it should be at full power with an input of 60% of 5V, or 3v.

    DANGER: You can actually connect the throttle connector directly to controller connector CM2 to fully bypass the power harness or map box, BUT you will have SCARY-DANGEROUS throttle response by comparison. You have been warned!

    Manon (manon.zorzi@electric-motion.fr) is the best resource for us North Americans to EM tech support. But out of warranty means they charge for ALL actual solutions.

    Good luck mxs.

    Catfish ...
    Ditch and woodsrider-boyd like this.
  10. mxs

    mxs Adventurer

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2009
    Oddometer:
    33
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    Thanks ... I have been able to dig up most of the info on-line, but I see a lot of helpful additional stuff. Just for the record, my bike is under warranty, because it was brand new when I bought a couple of months or so ago.

    I keep hearing from a second person that Manon is great, but unfortunately I cannot say that has been my experience. I send an email out, wait 2,3 days, end reminder, get a reply back .... I am from a service industry, so I naturally dislike when people take this long time to reply in today's day and age. We will see, I am a patient man, but I sure as heck am grateful, I paid a heavily discounted price for the bike.

    So you are saying there is a "notable" difference between .... bike coasting with no throttle applied and no throttle applied with a regen button pressed? I really don't use the regen button at all to be honest, but once or twice I used it, it just felt like no-throttle coasting. I see it as just another thing which could go wrong on this bike ... and it was on my list of things to try to disconnect, to rule out a problem there.

    How were you able to measure voltages on the throttle 3-wire connection while the throttle being mounted and throttle applied on a bike? There's no room, or very so little under the little bracket once the tine screw is removed?

    As far as the map switch .... Manon had me to test the map switch with the map harness being connected directly. But to be honest the difference between map 2 and direct connection felt like no difference at all ... with a bike on a jack stand, just twisting a throttle from 0 to full. I cannot ride the bike now with -10C and first snow in .... I understand from what you posted, direct connection should feel different, but perhaps not something you can feel with a bike on a stand?

    I don't know what will EM suggest, next, I have not heard from Manon in days .... had to send a reminder this morning.
  11. motomaster132003

    motomaster132003 Adventurer

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2011
    Oddometer:
    28
    To test the throttle, all you need is a multi meter. You will need to unplug it from the bike, set your multimeter to 5k ohm and then you will put one lead on one of the the 3 throttle wires and the other lead on another throttle wire. Its going to be trial and error to figure out the correct 2 wires, but you should see 0 when the throttle is closed and around 5 when it is fully open. Around 2.5 at half throttle, etc. If the pot in the throttle is broken the voltage will be jumpy on the multimeter when you hold the throttle at quarter throttle for example.
  12. mxs

    mxs Adventurer

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2009
    Oddometer:
    33
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    Yeah, I know how to test the throttle when it’s off the bike ... which I did and it tested pretty much OK. So it’s not the throttle itself. Plus I am on a second throttle, because I was left believed that this is the problem.

    What I was asking above is how to test the throttle in action on the bike. This way I could do all kinds of other things ... like pushing regen, switching maps etc. ..... But I don’t see how that can be easily done due to how accessible the base wires are on the throttle wire ... but maybe someone has an idea.
  13. Kyler

    Kyler Geezer

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2007
    Oddometer:
    2,856
    Location:
    Just north of Keedysville, MD
    he's been pretty busy with the roll out of the 2020 ePure bikes. I've had the same issue. He always responds though.
  14. catfish

    catfish Squidicus Adventurous Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2002
    Oddometer:
    950
    Location:
    Morgan Territory, CA
    I bought mating connectors to make adapters for voltage testing, and building my newly-designed 3-map box today.
    (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0728H9M1T/)
    The 2-pin & 4-pin connectors are there as well.

    Power differences are hard to tell on lift. I'm talking about riding & sensing the accel torque. Sorry to hear you can't test ride. Snowbird to California? ;-)

    Spin motor up to full speed on lift and close throttle. Then throttle up again & press regen button. No difference, really? Its quite noticeable while riding, if everything is working right.

    Manon appears to be the only english-speaking/writing interface to the French-only tech support folks. EM is a very-small company. With most of N.A. without functional dealers, I suspect they are swamped. Good luck!

    Catfish ...
  15. mxs

    mxs Adventurer

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2009
    Oddometer:
    33
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    Excellent .. great idea ... Will definitely grab some of those and make a test cable to plug in between the throttle and harness and run some figures.


    Don't get me started with the winter already ... I learned over the years that the worst winter is not the really cold one ... it's the one in a location with no mountains and places to do winter sports and plenty of bad drivers. It sucks, big time ...

    I honestly don't recall it that much ... as I said I used it only few times when riding, so I will have to try the regen button with the bike on jack lift or wait for the cold spell to blow over ...

    I honestly would not give them a pass because they are small. I have dealt with few very small other companies, French, Czech, German, and they were very responsive. They were getting it that happy new customers sell bikes ..... Maybe EM should have focused on markets they can really realistic support well considering their abilities, rather than going somewhere where it can blow up into their face. It's just hard to understand why when your customer base is pretty small (lets be honest they are not selling huge amount of bikes), you still are having a hard time supporting your customers in timely fashion. I guess my expectations are way much higher than EM is prepared for. Fair enough, lesson learned.
  16. Plawa

    Plawa ¿ʞO ǝʞᴉq ʎɯ sI

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2014
    Oddometer:
    2,994
    Location:
    Prague, CZ
    I moved continents, brought the EM with me, now I finally found a trials club with a great riding spot 10 minutes from where I live.. so I finally have a place to put the EM to good use again. This was today before I was braver than I should have been and launched it up a hill only to watch it tumble down and break the rear fender..



    aaand.. I'm thinking of selling it. Now that I have a place where I can legally ride a 2-stroke I'll probably get one, hopefully it will be a 1:1 swap financially.. I'm still glad I got it, it served me great when I needed a bike I can ride around the neighborhood but if I want to keep moving forward I feel like I need a bike with a clutch.. One think I noticed as well today was how much easier it is to balance a 2T bike, you can definitely feel the lower center of gravity and the gyroscopic effect of the engine.
    catfish, Kyler, Bucho and 2 others like this.