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Discussion in 'Electric Motorcycles' started by voltsxamps, Jun 18, 2016.
... and that 's happening more and more all the time.
and.... EV' s are fun!
Wow never heard anyone say riding a washing machine was fun!! Takes all types I guess
The E people want a world without v8s or vehicles like the Hoonicorn, or nascar, formula1, motogp, IOM,
Imagine a boring old world with pissant silent E Vehicle driven by E sheeple.
Did you watch the video of the electric bike that won the hare scramble? It was posted a few pages ago. What does making noise have to do with fun?
Isn’t Formula 1 going towards E vehicles? I thought they were hybrids now.
One of the fastest vehicles to the top of Pikes Peak is an e vehicle.
That's what I don't get about those who get all weepy-eyed about the emotional draw of the ICE. Every single emotional hook for an ICE is a manifestation of its inferiority. Noise and heat - the result of an ICE having only around 1/4th the efficiency of an EV (which also means an EV doesn't need as much of the higher energy density in gasoline that they love crowing about). Shifting - necessary because of the absolutely pathetic low end torque of an ICE. The satisfaction of tuning an engine just so - which makes as much sense in the EV world as tuning a hammer. Just get on and ride, and never worry about having your EM down for a day for a valve adjustment or chasing fuel injection gremlins.
And then there's the performance side. Maybe EV and ICE are too 'apples and oranges' for some, so here's an all-ICE analogy (trigger warning for Harley fans, fact-based Harley bashing follows). There are drag race events for Harleys only. Why? Because it's a rare Harley that doesn't get trounced at the drags by any number of rice-burners in open competition. When the Harleys run together they can all have fun and feel fast, when in fact they are effectively eating at the kiddie table. They would rather feel fast than be fast - can't give up their love for their archaic rides (which they still think are the best ever), when the future (to them) already passed them by long ago.
Or at the road races some years ago there was (still is?) a separate spec series for nothing but Harley XR1200s, which allowed the same level of mods (almost none) as the Street series. The 600 cc Street racers (with half the engine size, mind you) run laps 6 - 7 seconds faster than the XR1200s. Same track, same day. EVERY LAP. (Y'know what else turns lap times 6 - 7 seconds slower than the 600 Streets? 250s and vintage racers.) If they let the XR1200s run with the 600 Streets, the Harleys would be a dangerous rolling obstruction. To be fair, in this case there is no illusion of who's faster. The XR1200 class is a different game. It's all about putting the riders on essentially the same bike, so it's a rider-only competition. (Which also means it attracts some really fast riders, but the Harleys are still that slow.) Harleys were chosen to neuter and normalize the mechanical side of racing so the riders could shine. Yet many XR1200 owners think they have one of the most desirable rides of all time, the pinnacle of Harley performance.
Broaden that concept of Harley performance vs. everything else to ICEVs vs. EVs. What we're talking about here is the difference between emotion - resistance to change, actually - and performance. Nine times out of ten, the EV haters have never ridden/driven one, and virtually all have never lived with one for any length of time. (I've lived with my EV for years. I've also wrenched on a championship-winning Superbike team, so I know what performance is. My EV ain't no washing machine. Performance is performance, regardless of source.) The fact of the matter is, motorcyclists are generally very conservative about motorcycling. Only the most forward-thinking are seriously open to change, and they are a very rare breed.
To be sure, EMs are still in their infancy and still have some glaring shortcomings to deal with, primarily dealing with range and charging. ICE motorcycles are in fact the better choice for many. Today. But those numbers are shifting, because change is coming fast - and that just rattles the conservative motorcyclists even more, which drives them to more strident and loopy arguments against EMs. There will come a point, sooner than most are really ready for, when staying with an ICE motorcycle will be just plain, straight-up irrational. But plenty will still do it. Just like those Harley drag racers. Just like those who refused to accept the first cars a century ago, and kept riding horses beyond the point of making any sense.
Anyone who thinks we humans are an advanced species isn't willing to examine humans very closely.
You said this better than I could have. I love driving my EV. Best car I've had thus far. I won't be going back to an ICE for my commuter vehicle for sure. And yes, I've taken it on road trips.
As for bikes, well. Zero's release of the Black Forest got me to sit up and pay more attention. Give it some more range and quick charging (or even CCS, DC Fast charging) and I will be ready for that change.
The guy above who keeps saying they are washing machines has obviously never ridden in and EV or on an EV bike. He has no clue what he's talking about and is just spewing shit from his mouth.
And yet, here you are in an Electric Motorcycles forum. Which begs the question, to what purpose? You give every indication of resistance to learning anything. That leaves little potential justification other than trolling. You appear to be trying to stir people up ("E sheeple?" Really?), but doing so with little knowledge of the subject matter, so it just comes out as ignorant hate-baiting. You're making as much sense as Monty Python's argument clinic sketch. (Look it up - it's hilarious.)
Please explain how I'm wrong.
Or better yet, just lurk for awhile. Open your mind a bit and relax. You might be surprised at what an open mind can lead you to. I was more deeply embedded in ICE-world than most anyone, and look at me now. Lose the fear and look at change as a potential opportunity - not as something to fear. That way you can rationally evaluate what change truly makes sense for you and what doesn't, which leads to a genuine improvement in quality of life. Losing that fear is one of the most liberating, illuminating and uplifting things anyone can do. Conviction at the expense of rationality is idiotic.
One of the first things I learned about adult education was that the hardest part is un-learning previous stuff. Ingrained knowledge is prevalent everywhere ("I've done this for the past 40 years; my dad did it 40 years before that and my grandpaw did it 40 years before that!"). One of the best books on change management I've found has, as its first principle, "burn all bridges" (back to the status quo) so there is no other way to go but forward. Many, many firms (especially at the upper echelon) try to move towards some new product/manufacturing scheme/client base but fail to heed this and so keep falling back to what they know rather than moving forward to something different as planned. Whether the "something different" is "better" or not is only truly judged in history. Anyone still using their slide rules, 8-track tapes or rotary dial phones?
Sure this is an open forum, and anyone can post here, as long as they're reasonably on-topic. But if you're so wound up against electric vehicles, can you at least construct a more coherent and cogent argument to express your opposition? Else it looks like you're just here to spout and blather.
I was kinda excited when I read about the Black Forest and a 200 mi. range with 1 hr. recharge
But when I looked deaper the 200 mi. is with all the optional extra juice.
But range is more like 90 mi. on the highway (and I assume wide open spaces).
And the 1 hr. recharge is not to full, so....
I still think a hybrid makes more sense with a gas generator to recharge, either while riding or when parked (just in case).
Well, their faster charge is with a Level 2 plug. What I would like to see if a true blue Level 3 CCS plug to use the DC Fast Charge locations. The small battery would be topped off in less than half an house at a 50KW charge. Though, they would need an active battery cooling system as well, but then I would also like to see that in the future also.
E vehicles were tried 10-120 years ago.
Why do people hold a candle for an old concept?
The other dimension many of the e people forget is the separation of energy systems - if the worlds vehicles go E, who pays again for the re infrastructure? The cost of electricity will go through the roof. Large scale electricity generation doesn’t just happen - it takes decades. And billions. And trillions.
It’s interesting watching the enthusiastic but naive e people pump things just cos they’re new.
Open your eyes just a bit to the broader change going e will bring. Inferior product plus mass damage to industrial economies
Anytime history has shown once the herd moves then the damage is done. The resource waste on remaking all the propulsive infrastructure will be born by taxpayers who face electricity costs of $millions per kw. The e people climate alarmists just want to spread socialism at the end of the day. Deny choice and an individuals right to choose. Force them onto systems where unit prices go through the roof. The herd probably haven’t even considered this aspect.
Govts love it as they tax energy on %. The e people love it as they get subsidized products.
The only way e vehicles will get mass penetration is by force of law. Hardly democratic but then again e people aren’t interested in choice. They want the public to be forced onto e vehicles.
Going electric by law sits nicely with socialists who despise individuals and think big state group think is best.
If e people were fully up front and said ICE can remain then I’d be all for the race. But they aren’t. They want to use force to deny choice and restrict supply. That is the much larger issue with e vehicles.
E vehicles are best remaining on the fringe of society as their impact is annoying but manageable.
It’s very hard to isolate yourself from what works.
Why did the ICE kill off e vehicles 100 years ago?
Lovely word smithing
You are ignoring the elephants in the room
Cost per unit of electricity and use of force to restrict choice. Half the world switches to electricity which cannot be stored long term.
What happens to price?
But someone on Advrider said it would be cool!!
Electricity demand for the foreseeable future has been projected - by the power companies, not by greenie-weenie activists - to be flat or declining, including a large and growing increase in EVs.
Those same power companies see this as a threat to profits, so they are trying to accelerate EV use by lobbying congress to continue EV incentives, and they've added their own incentives for installing charging units.
I'm not the only one who charges their EV only at home, and can't see the difference in my power bill. It's less than the month-to-month variations.
In short, price is stable or it drops. Because EVs aren't the only influence on power demand.
This is a perfect example of how relying on a casual observation that comes off the top of your head, coming to a false conclusion from it and then beating others over the head with it, instead of doing real research to determine what the facts are, makes you look like a fool.
And BTW, who the hell is using force to restrict choice? You will likely be able to keep burning gasoline until the day you die. Though as the market changes, your choices may become less popular, and therefore more expensive. But you're fine with that, because free markets, right?
Even if no new fossil fuel vehicles can be sold after 2030 or whenever, that's because you don't have the right to foul a planet that belongs to everyone, any more than you have the right to take a dump in your community's water supply. The more we learn, the more we have to refine our definitions of things. You need some work on your definition of "freedom."
Before you go on some tirade about the climate crisis being some evil global conspiracy, please first do us the courtesy of listing your qualifications that justify your pontificating on climate science. I don't know what you do, but I suspect you would have a problem if I walked in and started telling you how you're doing it wrong. That is, of course, exactly what you're doing if you want to challenge the experts on this topic.
Nice word salad you have there. Have to waste my time with this shit, but letting it stand just means someone will get fooled by it.
Ok, for starters. When do YOU think they will be charged on average? I dunno about anyone else, but I plug mine in at home and charge overnight. Utilities at the executive level for the power company that I worked for were actually looking forward to EVs due to that fact that they would charge overnight. What do YOU think happens with the load on the system. Ever heard of a load curve or load profile? EV charging helps utilities with dispatching their units more evenly. It's a lot harder on any system to cycle on and off. You only have so many on/off cycles before a major overhaul. You also have run hours to that overhaul, but those hours are a lot higher that cycles.
As for old tech, so is the ICE vehicle, but I will address this more below.
The rest of your message is more shit coming out of your mouth.
There are a couple reasons why EVs didn't take off 100 years ago. The first was range along with the expansion of gas stations. Add in the fact that they weren't considered "manly" because you can start one with the push of a button instead of a hand crank and well. The EVs of 100 years ago were fine machines other than the range and even slower charging than now. Couple that with more gas stations and well.... That also meant development money didn't pour into them much until recently.
As for the price since you just keep spouting off. Do you think your electric bill hasn't increased over the years? How about that gas bill that fluctuates all over the place. Hey, what happened only a week ago in Saudi Arabia and what the did the oil price do?
Where the fuck do you get it can not be stored long term? It's being done and more money is being pumped into it as we speak.
Try doing some reading.
So you’re saying when every household plugging in their vehicles to charge will not cause an enormous increase in electricity demand and price?
Cobalt use in today's batteries is miniscule compared to its other uses in industrial processes, metal alloys, pigments, etc. It is also a supply chain risk for battery manufacturers, which is why every new development being worked on for advanced batteries includes eliminating cobalt. It will be completely gone from batteries in a few years.
You're scraping the bottom of the EV-hater's barrel of retorts. Try something else. My conscience is just fine, thank you, how's yours after being repeatedly shot down for your lame, repeatedly debunked EV-hater BS? What's next, the old chestnut of a Corvette having a smaller carbon foot print that a Prius?
He really is a waste of time on this.
Just bounces around and never ACTUALLY addresses any point except one quick thing that he just latches onto and makes some non-reply like above about how I somehow said something I didn't. Sigh...
Utilities are happy to have this load in the face of falling demand. Will there be come capital investment to upgrade some parts of the grid, yes, but they can plan for this and have been doing so. Will there also be an increase of load on the grid. Yes, some, but being able to bring on those assets that are offline normally at night means they are making money rather that just sitting there. The load for charging EVs overnight can be compared to a very hot summer day with all ACs running. That is a high load. Yet the world won't switch over to EVs overnight. Overall EVs are a boon for them.
Bet he doesn't even know that the current being drawn for EV charging can be changed... The next thing you know he'll be railing against LED lighting.
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. What do you not get about my EV, charged solely at home, not increasing my bill enough so I can even see it? The same ignorant panic gripped the UK some years back and their power companies shot it down too.
What do you not understand about the link I posted about the electric power companies projecting flat demand, even with a large increase in EVs? Did you even read it? Or would that be too big a risk to your world view?
It's quite obvious that rational thought just bounces off your Shining Shield of Determined Ignorance.
Cobalt used in batteries is 60% of world annual cobalt production.
Obviously scheduled to rise with mass move to electric vehicles being predicted.