Electric motorcycles equivalent to 320-373 mpg

Discussion in 'Electric Motorcycles' started by voltsxamps, Mar 14, 2018.

  1. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

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    The article below reports that an EV is equivalent to a (non existent) 80 mpg gas vehicle, which got me thinking.. what is the gas mpg equivalent of an electric motorcycle?

    Electric cars are becoming increasingly greener in the US thanks to a cleaner electric grid

    Fred Lambert
    - Mar. 13th 2018 5:59 am ET

    [​IMG]

    In the US, the latest EPA study shows that on average, an EV driving on electricity is equivalent to a conventional (nonexistent) gasoline car that gets 80 MPG.

    [​IMG]

    https://electrek.co/2018/03/13/electric-cars-greener-grid/


    Of course, electric motorcycles and electric scooters are far more efficient than their electric 4-wheeled brethren. The top selling Zero S, for example, is the City/Hwy combined equivalent of a 356 MPG gas motorcycle. Zero’s FXS has an even higher combined MPGe of 373.

    The average efficiency difference between an EV and an EM is roughly 4x for a 320 MPG equivalence; figures in line with EM manufacturers and actual owner reports online and our own forum members.

    Now if we can just get the range and time to refuel equivalent of a gas motorcycle, we’re set!
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  2. ex250mike

    ex250mike Long timer

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    Does that account for polluting china to make the lithium batteries?
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  3. tennistime99

    tennistime99 Been here awhile

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    Still not convinced on the electricity production being cleaner. It may be true under today's demands, but how about when cars are forced that direction? The demand for electricity is going to be huge. Solar panels in the desert hurt turtles, wind turbines hurt birds and bats and dams hurt salmon runs. Something's gotta give.

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  4. ctromley

    ctromley Long timer

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    Taking a 'sky is falling' stance is easy when you don't really know what the future brings. I'm living that future right now by commuting every day in my electric car, ~50 miles round trip. I charge only at home. I assume my electric bill has to be higher, but if no one told me there was an EV charging off my plug I'd never know it. The increase is so small it's completely lost in the month to month variations. Even when comparing the same month from year to year.

    If you charge at night after peak demand, that actually helps power companies.

    The sky isn't going anywhere.
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  5. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

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    Tesla broke ground on the Gigafactory in June 2014 outside Sparks, Nevada. The name Gigafactory comes from the word “Giga,” the unit of measurement representing “billions.” The factory’s planned annual battery production capacity is 35 gigawatt-hours (GWh), with one GWh being the equivalent of generating (or consuming) 1 billion watts for one hour. This is nearly as much as the entire world’s current battery production combined.

    https://www.tesla.com/gigafactory

    Tesla plans to buy lithium from a mining project that’s under development 200 miles from its battery factory near Reno, Nev. Pure Energy Minerals, which is leasing the Nevada land for mining, announced the supply agreement with the electric car maker.

    http://fortune.com/2015/09/16/tesla-lithium-gigafactory-nevada/

    Silver Peak NV contains a Lithium deposit at roughly 228,000 tons in a 25-square-mile area.. up to 18 million tons of lithium, worth up to roughly $500 billion at current market prices.

    http://www.mining.com/web/america-finds-massive-source-of-lithium-in-wyoming/

    Largest lithium producer is Australia. It produced 18,700 MT of the metal last year, up an impressive 3,300 MT from the year before. Chile comes in second at 14,100 MT, followed by Argentina 5,500 MT and then China at 3,300 MT.

    https://investingnews.com/daily/res...ithium-investing/lithium-producing-countries/

    While most of the lithium is being mined in other countries, much of it is sent to China for refinement and battery production. I understand and agree with your concerns over China's impact on the planet with it's massive manufacturing processes and it's waste byproducts. I would expect China to surpass Tesla's Nevada based gigafactory in terms of production in the near future and along with that, an expected rise in a related carbon footprint.

    As lithium mining and production ramps up over the next few years, I hope that best practices are implemented to not offset the benefits of EV's with it's production, as our EPA cannot police how clean other countries production methods are. Our country can however choose how clean WE generate energy and use electricity to travel with zero added emissions.
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  6. ctromley

    ctromley Long timer

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    I am wary of China as well, but my experience as an engineer working with Chinese components over a period of decades tells me it's a BIG mistake to make broad assumptions. There are some Chinese operations that would be an embarrassment to African bushmen. And others that far surpass what you see in American factories in terms of safety, cleanliness, product quality and efficiency.

    I do not know the details of lithium extraction and processing. I do know that the US EPA classifies lithium batteries as landfillable. If lithium becomes rare enough or enough of an environmental concern, it's always possible to recycle it. We do that with lead, at close to a 100% rate.

    So when someone takes a broad swipe at China for being an environmental hell hole, I'm not inclined to believe them unless they can provide specific evidence. It was generally true not that long ago, but they are doing a much better job than we are at improving their environmental performance. (Which country backed out of the Paris Accord?) And they dominate the global solar market, because they want to dominate it. (We could, but we couldn't care less. We'd rather give subsidies to oil companies.)

    So if you're going to assert that Chinese lithium is an environmental nightmare, I'm receptive - IF you can make your case. Be specific.

    And BTW, lithium could easily be passé in a few years. There's a lot of chatter recently about proton technology that uses available-everywhere carbon. No one has been complaining about pencils being a toxic product, so the whole toxic battery scare might blow over soon. If Musk is as smart as I think he is, he expects the gigafactory to change today's lithium battery construction lines to something else in the not-too-distant future.
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  7. baloneyskin daddy

    baloneyskin daddy bikaholic Super Supporter

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    Cant wait to see how all the govt entities get there road tax dollars out of elec. vehicles. Y
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  8. ctromley

    ctromley Long timer

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    Some states are already doing it. They charge a fee based on mileage when you pay for your registration.
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  9. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

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    Perhaps you misread or misunderstood my post.
    I presented quotes from recent sources and how they relate to where lithium is mined, who are it’s main users, Tesla’s responsible choices, expected changes, Chinese lithium production, and it’s correlated pollution in response to the quoted post above, followed by my own hope for best practices.
    In which way was I “assert(ing) that Chinese lithium is an environmental nightmare”?
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  10. ctromley

    ctromley Long timer

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    Sorry, my intent was to agree with and supplement your response to the other poster. Probably should have replied directly, but your response seemed a better launch pad.
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  11. ex250mike

    ex250mike Long timer

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    Considering Tesla has major financial issues I wouldn't count on the giga factory being long term viable. They are still building the model 3 by hand. And musk plans to bring out the heavy trucks in the next few years?

    The tech is cool but the company is hemorrhaging cash. As much as I like SpaceX, Musk comes off as a snakoil salesman.

    I like EV's and think they are the future but the article in the OP was a fluff piece with no facts.
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  12. Raintown

    Raintown Politically Incorrect

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    China? You mean Arizona...


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  13. chasbmw

    chasbmw Long timer

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    I’m told that it takes 6KWH of energy to produce a gallon of gas, that means that my electric car is 20 miles ahead before the ICE car has left the driveway.


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  14. BrianTRice

    BrianTRice Nerdy adventurer

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    Just for some practical, day-to-day napkin math:

    The 13.0kWh of capacity in my 2016 Zero DSR (which I've logged about 27k miles on after 26k miles on my previous 2013 Zero) is equivalent to about 1/3 gallon of gas in thermodynamic energy that modern combustion releases. I regularly achieve 100-120 miles of range using a fairing which means I'm averaging 300-350 mpg equivalent at mostly highway speeds (65mph+/-5).

    Even an inefficient powerplant upstream doesn't make that big a dent in that, and the amount of energy used to extract, refine, and transport that gallon of gasoline is also a factor that is hidden from the end user that the electrical distribution grid does not add.

    Electric motorcycles tend to use 1/4-1/2 of the energy per mile as an electric car, in any case, moving only 600lbs mass (bike+rider+gear+cargo) with very high powertrain efficiency (minimal waste heat and minimal wear on belt+tires).
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  15. Dino de Laurentiis

    Dino de Laurentiis Working on it

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    The number of birds killed by windmills is a drop in the bucket compared to the number of birds killed by domestic cats. Further, a US study some years ago concluded that fossil fuel plants kill on average 5,2 birds per produced GWh compared to wind and nuclear which had around 0,3-0,4 bird fatalities per produced GWh (that is, fossil power production is about 15 times more dangerous for birds than wind). The areas around off shore wind farms generally become marine sanctuaries since it's not possible to trawl within the area of the wind farm and larger ships cannot travel through reducing impact injuries on marine wildlife.
    http://theconversation.com/wind-far...slayers-theyre-made-out-to-be-heres-why-79567

    As for salmons and hydro power, it's trivial to build fish ladders to let the salmons pass.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_ladder
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  16. Dino de Laurentiis

    Dino de Laurentiis Working on it

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    In addition, that figure is only for the actual _refinement_ of crude oil into gasoline, and does not take the significant energy use for extracting and transporting oil to the refinery and the refined gasoline to it's final destination (i.e. a gas station). It should also be noted that the 6 kWh figure for the refinery is primarily fossil derived since the refinery uses the fractions of the crude oil they can't sell as as heat source for the refining process. Only about 0.1 kWh of those 6 is electrical energy. In short, even before the gas has been burned in a car, it has already caused substantial amounts of CO2 emissions.
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  17. Lesharoturbo

    Lesharoturbo Nerdly Adventurer

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    How much gas and oil does it take to make 6kWh of electricity? What are the losses between transmission and conversion to DC?

    Unfortunately, fossil fuels are still the major players in electrical generation at 62% as of 2017, so take that into account.

    PLEASE use direct, real comparisons, not hearsay (I heard).
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  18. Lesharoturbo

    Lesharoturbo Nerdly Adventurer

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    The EIA estimates that all fosail fuel generation averages about 30% efficiency and 5% of that is lost in transmission and distribution. Add in conversion losses and you end up with an efficiency not that much different from ice engines burning the same fossil fuels .

    Weird.

    Adding renewables back in is where the difference is made. Without renewables, electric cars just do not make sense.
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  19. ctromley

    ctromley Long timer

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    So you tell your electric power company to source your electricity only from renewable providers. It's an option available to consumers just about anywhere. Yes, the grid is a great big bucket of electricity that is filled from all different sources, including fossil fuels. But when you mandate renewable sources, they are the ones who get paid to refill the bucket with what you used. It's more expensive, but not that much. A cleaner grid is worth it to me. (It also helps create jobs in growing industries, like solar.)

    That's how you make it make sense.
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  20. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

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    In the same way that Apple had major finance challenges when Steve Jobs launched the iMac, iTunes, and the iPod. Years later, it’s major competitors continued to downplay the interest as short lived, laughed at Steve’s vision, and wrote the iPhone off as a joke. In many ways, Elon Musk is today’s Steve Jobs.

    Model 3’s are built on a semi-automated line with some manual labor, no different than how 99% of all other cars are built. The difference is that their line automation has and will increase at a faster rate than any other automaker before it. For example, a new automated battery module line is expected to added this month; all in order to satisfy orders for a car with greater range, safety, performance, utility, with a charging infrastructure at a price unmatched by any other. If Elon is selling snake oil, nearly a half million people want it and has inspired every other car manufacturer to research and develop their own EV’s..and now EM’s. What other car company in history has 400,000+ prepaid deposits on a car with an up to 2 year delivery time? Despite the tight budget and all those who stand in their way, Tesla continues to achieve what so many said wasn’t possible. With budgets a fraction of Tesla’s, Zero and Alta have built respectable bikes that have improved in every way year after year.

    If the OP is a fluff piece, then the scientists who provided the data must be bunnies. There’s more than enough fact behind the efficiency advantages of two-wheeled transportation vs four. Add to that, the same efficiency advantages that EV’s have over a gas powered vehicle to EM’s.
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