Electric output on LC4?

Discussion in 'Thumpers' started by Airhead, Jun 8, 2005.

  1. meat popsicle

    meat popsicle Ignostic

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    That is good news. When you get a chance please review your how-to post for completenesss and flesh out any details that you feel could be of assistance. I am waiting for another person to do your mod before I list it as a How-To in the index. Thanks for the testing reports. Too bad there wasn't any before and after dyno tests or electrical testing (even just electrical testing now to see if the output is indeed higher than reported by KTM). Seat of the pants observations are allowed. :D
    #41
  2. Pezz_gs

    Pezz_gs Cant ride for crap

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    I have a 97 640 Rallye which I have converted to electric start.
    It runs the 660 Rallye 80mm crank. Runs really well. Starts first click of the button.

    Only problem is it seems to kill the Battery?
    I am running a Dynavolt 10amp/hr sealed battrey. The 660 Rallye runs a 5amp/hr battery. Over the last month, I have ridden a few times for 30 mins stop the bike and go to restart the bike and not enough to turn the motor over. This killed the 1st Battery.

    The donor electric motor and harness came from a 97 LSE/EGS 620. Runs no Capacitor. So after much diagnosing and testing of the various companents it seemed to point to the lack of a Capacitor. The Rallye runs the recifier in the fairing bracket with a capacitor next to it. The LSE doesnt run one at all but the Recitifier is next to the battery under the seat. I installed one next to the rectifier on the Fairing Bracket. Fitted another battery. It started and all the outputs looked fine, both Volts and Amps.

    I took it for a 130k's (90) mile test ride yesterday. I wired up an old BMW Volt meter I have and it was running well. Stopped the bike and then nothing. The volt meter shows nothing in the battery. Whilst the bike was running it was showing consistently 13 - 13.5Volts. Volt meter was wired to positive battery terminal. Negative to the frame. The headlights were on. It runs dual H4 globes pulling 110wts 55w each.

    Well, from my thoughts this morning, It seems that the problem 'might' be
    the battery. Its a sealed acid battery but the Alternator output might be too much and it fries them. When I bought it the guy emphasised that they dont like a 'fast charge' that some chargers put out. I am going to chat to a friend who owns a battery shop this morning and see.

    It hold a charge when it sits in the shed and run for short times. When I go for longer it dies. I think putting the capacitor gives me enough oomph to keep the engine running. The LSE motor runs a different Kokusan ingnition system to most LC4's and has an exciter coil in the black box. Good move I reckon. The volt meter was well over 13V all during the ride. Its not a dead short, so it must be the battery. . . . . .

    Question is I need to find the max power output that goes back into the battery for the LC4 Motor???
    #42
  3. creeper

    creeper Still alive...

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    Hi Earthscape...

    I applaud your tenacity and desire to improve a marginal system... you've put quite a bit of effort into this project, and I'm sure there will be many that benefit by it. I also appreciate the "crash test dummy" role you've accepted in this experiment.

    I was wondering if you've had an opportunity to do any AC and DC output measurements, and perhaps document the curves. I tried to read thru all you've done, and you may have already performed some measured tests that I missed... if I've overlooked this, forgive me.

    I'd be interested in seeing what the idle outputs are, as well as output per 1000 rpm... to produce a kind of graph indicating the peak and average.
    I also wonder what kind of temperatures are being generated at the battery and regulator/rectifier.

    The reason I ask all this is because the system is, admittedly a combination of mismatched pieces and I wonder if they work well enough together to continue to function over the long term.
    The miles you currently have are a good indication of sucess... but it's possible that, based on what you've written that you're right on the edge and repetitive excess related heat will have a cumulative effect on the system.

    My intention is not to lean on you to obtain this information so much as it is an interest in confirming that none of the outputs are excessive sufficient to do damage. Over the years I've seen too many systems have catastrophic failures because the output exceeded the capabilities of the downstream components ability to shed heat.

    This is in no way a put down to what you've done, more an attempt at a conformation that the combination of parts you've invested time and effort to make work will function for tens of thousands of miles within acceptable parameters.

    Just because I ask, there is no expectation, responsibility or obligation on your part to conduct any testing... more a satisfaction of curiosity for me, and perhaps a demonstration of a margin of safety for those considering taking advantage of the information you've provided.

    Thanks,
    C
    #43
  4. Earthscape

    Earthscape Have ya got a helmut?

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    Well, I haven't been around for a while due to selling my house and moving. Also went on a 3200 mile trip on my 950, but that's a different story.

    Anyway, just before I left, not so good news with the 640 upgrade. One morning I went to ride the bike in to work, and it wasn't running right. I suspected a dirty carb, but that wasn't it. I think the regulator/rectifier is "burning" out. The output of the stator may be too much for it. However, the bike is not in my posession at the moment (in storage while we are in between houses), so I can't do any definitive testing.

    When the bike wasn't running right, I discovered the headlight bulb was burned out. I replaced the bulb, and the new one burned out within a few minutes. I was also able to briefly put a voltmeter across the battery with the bike running, and remember seeing unusually high voltage numbers (in the 14.X range). That's all I had time to do though.

    It will be a few weeks before I can get the bike back and take some more readings on the regulator. If it is bad, I'll contact Electrosport since it is under warranty, and they did recommend it for use with the ESG950 stator. If they don't have a different, higher capacity model, I may have to return to the stock stator. That would be a bummer.

    I'll update when I make any progress.
    #44
  5. creeper

    creeper Still alive...

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    Interesting and thoughtfully objective information. Looking forward to the next report... I'm sure it will shed a little light (no pun intended) on what happened and why.
    Hope you can get it all sorted and working reliably.

    C
    #45
  6. adjuster

    adjuster Adventurer

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    In working on the 620rxc I have, and noting the placement of the voltage regulator, I'm thinking with the higher output stator, there is not enough cooling air over the regulator to keep it from burning out. (As has appeared to happen now.)

    The output of the Raptor stator in combination with the KTM flywheel magnet size appears to be putting out some serious power.

    As Creeper noted, this excess power has to be dissapated as heat if your not using it. (I'd say just add more lights till your happy with the setup since you really can't have too many lights right... LOL)

    Other option is to revise where the voltage regulator is mounted. I know many bikes mount them to frame rails out in the air flow for maximum cooling effect. I would think the KTM location of under the seat, over the battery is about the worst place possible for air flow.

    It might seem a simple fix, but mounting that voltage regulator on the right side, say the back side of the passenger foot peg mount, but clear of wheel travel might just provide the air flow needed to keep it cool, and extend the life of the voltage regulator. (And add more lights.. :) )
    #46
  7. Donkey Hotey

    Donkey Hotey De Jo Momma

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    Keep in mind that you could collect mud in that location and once caked, mud makes a wonderful insulator. That's probably why they picked the location they did.
    #47
  8. meat popsicle

    meat popsicle Ignostic

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    The airbox intake is directly in front of it, which probably moves quite a bit of air over it. Not sure if the side airbox mod reduces this cooling effect. :dunno
    #48
  9. Donkey Hotey

    Donkey Hotey De Jo Momma

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    Ooohhh...that's a very good point...good catch! :thumb

    Now that you mention it, gassy foods might help to cool it too :lol3
    #49
  10. meat popsicle

    meat popsicle Ignostic

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    Say Earthscape,

    Do you think your modifications to the reg/rec (porting the bolt holes so the stock bolts would work) might have anything to do with the problem? Did you run that mod past Electrosport? They might give it the stinkey eye when you send it back for replacement or credit. :dunno

    Just curious about developments!
    #50
  11. Earthscape

    Earthscape Have ya got a helmut?

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    Excellent question! Prior to taking flute in hand and enlarging the holes, I asked Electrosport if this would void the warranty. They said no. Just today I packaged the regulator and sent it back to them on a warranty claim. The regulator was definitely bad. I had a little time to check some things out, and the regulator was letting way too much current through, which undoubtedly is what burned out the headlight bulb. I could also see all bulbs on the bike increase in brightness with RPM without limit. When I plugged in the stock regulator, the lights behaved normally with RPM. I already know that the stock regulator won't handle the output for any length of time, but it does work for short periods (as in minutes at most). It doesn't burn out right away, it just stops letting nearly all current through.

    I did notice that the regulator is mounted in a location that doesn't seem to get a lot of air flow, and I do have the airbox mod which probably doesn't help. But I did try to note how hot the regulator got (which is difficult because you really can't ride the bike with the seat off to monitor it, and if you did, all that air flow would cool it off better anyway). It didn't seem to get overly hot, just warm.

    When I talked to Electrosport, I expressed concern that the ESR100 regulator could not handle the output of the stator when installed on an LC4. He said it definitely should handle the output easily, and that they had a "bad batch" of that regulator, which is probably the cause of the problem.

    So, when they receive my unit, they will send another ESR100. All hope is not lost for the electrical upgrade, BUT...

    My 640 isn't running right now, started happening at the same time the regulator gave up, and I haven't been able to track down the cause. It will start and idle with the choke on. As soon as the choke is turned off, the engine dies no matter what. While running, opening the throttle results in horrendous sputtering and eventual stalling. The spark plug looked black and wet, but replacing it did nothing. I've also replaced the ignition coil, but that wasn't the problem either. The problem has the symptoms of a dirty carb, but I would think it may likely have something to do with the regulator letting too much current through, possibly burning something else out. Anyone have any ideas of what else to check? Taking the carb out is a royal pain, so if there's anything else that I can check first, I'll try it. Can the CDI be damaged but still run the bike? I'm a little stumped here - I can't see how the carb would plug up overnight, and be so coincidental to the regulator giving up at the same time. Any ideas?

    I'm bummed because the 640 is my favorite bike, and I haven't been able to ride it in months!
    #51
  12. meat popsicle

    meat popsicle Ignostic

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    I just did some spacing for my own read - might help others too.

    If it will start with the choke on, it makes me think fuel delivery issue, but you should post this outside of your electrical thread for more attention.

    One easy check before pulling the carb: open the float bowl and see if the main jet is still seated. If it comes out the upper half of the throttle gets screwy. But it shouldn't drastically effect idle... so nevermind. You can also check the jet needle and such from the top of the carb before pulling it.

    Try to be a bit more thorough with your description; I am not sure how you are trying to run the bike currently w/out your upgrade reg/rec, for example.
    #52
  13. Earthscape

    Earthscape Have ya got a helmut?

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    Ah, sorry about that, I'll try to describe what I'm doing a bit better. I have the stock regulator plugged in, since I know from past experience that it works for short periods or low RPM with the upgraded stator. With the burned out ESR100 stator, the bike runs the same as with the stock stator, with massive misfiring and stalling, except the lights would continue to get brighter with RPM, which is how I knew it was bad.

    When I get some time, I'm going to switch to the stock stator. I don't expect that to have any impact on the problem, but it's easier to do any troubleshooting with stock components.

    I'm running with the tank off, and the fuel line connected to an auxiliary tank that I can hang at various heights. I know the fuel pump is working because gas will pump right out the fuel line that connects to the right side of the tank if it's not blocked off.

    I suspect the issue is electrical becuase of the dark and wet sparkplug; and the regulator problem. The question is, what other ignition components could have been impacted by the bad regulator?

    It's late and I'm tired, so hopefully this made sense...
    #53
  14. snaggleXR650

    snaggleXR650 Been here awhile

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    I'm sure most everyone already knows this, and this may/may not apply to some of the the older LC4's. However, on my 625 SXC I notice that the ignition system appears to run off the lighting coil. As compared to my XR650R which has a dedicated lighting coil and a dedicated ignition coil.

    The LC4 coil is 3 phase and two of the legs split off and run to the CDI for the ignition system.

    A more powerful stator and different regulator/rectifier could EASILY have a negative impact on the ignition system of the bike. Obviously, if your ignition is not working properly, you are missing one of the three critical needs for an internal combustion engine, air, fuel and fire.

    As for upgrading the stator output on the LC4, this could be as simple as duplicating the stock winding with a size larger magnet wire, assuming there is physically room for the fatter wire.

    I did this on my XR650R, which is a simple single phase system, and the stator has LOTS of empty space. The stock coil is like 22awg, 300 turns. I went to 16awg magnet wire and 320 turns (just for good measure) and the added current carrying capacity of the fatter wire GREATLY increased the output.

    I'm curious about the Electrosport stator you tried. Was it physically larger, IE. able to hold fatter wire as compared to the stock stator?
    #54
  15. meat popsicle

    meat popsicle Ignostic

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    Some info on KLRista experience with Electrosport HERE.

    A good discussion, including the Electrosport Rep.
    #55
  16. Earthscape

    Earthscape Have ya got a helmut?

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    Sorry this is taking so long - 2006 has just been unusually busy for me. Anyway, I'm moved in enough now to be able to get to the bikes now and then. So, here's the latest on the 640 electrical upgrade.

    This is good news. All symptoms of the bike not running right pointed to the carb, and I couldn't find any bad electrical parts, so I finally pulled the carb and cleaned it. It didn't appear that dirty, and there was no shallac (sp?). But you never know; I put it back in and the bike started right up and ran fine (the carb will need some adjusting as it's not as responsive as I remember it used to be - some hesitation when the throttle is whacked open fast where before it was just beautiful; I suppose I could have missed some crud in there).

    But it does run and idle now - so, this means the problem was not electrical :clap, and much to my surprise, was totally coincidental to the regulator giving up.

    This means that hope is not lost for the stator upgrade. As part of the troubleshooting process I pulled the Electrosport stator out and replaced it with a KTM unit, and also used a KTM regulator. The Electrosport stator looks the same as the day I put it in, so that's good. I just got the replacement ESR100 regulator the other day, so I'll need to put the proper connectors on the wires, enlarge the mounting holes before I can put it on the bike. Hopefully that will happen this week since I have a few days off of work.

    The RMA process with Electrosport didn't go as quickly as I wanted, but that's ok with me because I didn't have the time to work on the bike until now anyway. It still seems that they do stand behind their products, and I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. Hopefully whatever issues they had with the batch(es) of regulators has been eliminated. If only we could convince them to sell components for the LC4 with the proper wire lengths and connectors installed, this job would be a lot easier for everyone.

    Once I get the new regulator and the ESG950 stator mounted up again, I'll provide an update. If the weather holds out, I may even be able to ride it! :ricky Boy am I happy that the electrical upgrades weren't for nothing!!

    Oh, one of my suspects was a clogged fuel filter. That wasn't the case, but I couldn't locate a new one anywhere. Does anyone have a KTM part number for the one that comes stock on the 97 to XX Adventures, just above the fuel pump?
    #56
  17. snaggleXR650

    snaggleXR650 Been here awhile

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    <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=3 width=460 bgColor=yellow border=1><TBODY><TR><TD align=right>Item #:</TD><TD align=left bgColor=white>19 </TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>Part Number:</TD><TD align=left bgColor=white>58312099052</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>Description:</TD><TD align=left bgColor=white>FUEL FILTER ELEMENT</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>Retail:</TD><TD align=left bgColor=white>$16.71</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
    As per Munn Racing...

    Keep us updated on the electrical results with the new reg/rec...
    #57
  18. Earthscape

    Earthscape Have ya got a helmut?

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    Wow, that was excellently fast snaggleXR650, thanks!

    Oh, and your previous question that I forgot to answer about the physical appearance of the ESG950 - other than the color, visible differences between it and the stock stator are hard to tell. Looking at them carefully, I would say the ESG950 probably has more windings on each post. Other than that, I'd probably have to take them apart to see differences. Physical sizes look the same. Page 2 of this thread has decent pics of both for comparison. I'll snap some more photos of them side by side since I'll have them both out again.

    I suppose rewinding a stock stator could do the trick too. The Electrosport stator wasn't too expensive though. Either way you would need an improved regulator. I don't like to destroy stock parts unless I have a backup, and used KTM stators are pretty hard to come by.
    #58
  19. snaggleXR650

    snaggleXR650 Been here awhile

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    Yes, I can imagine. I bought a spare stator for my 650R and rewound the spare, not touching the stock stator.

    My rewind on 650R worked great, but I was running the headlights (110W) in series with the stator and regulator side of the reg/rec. This allowed the headlights to drain off some of the juice before it went into the reg/rec and battery. Later, I tried to install a 55W bulb and run it on the DC side. No go, the reg/rec would only let ~2-4VDC through, and it got lower as I revved up the bike. I thought the reg/rec was toasted, but I put it back with the dual 55's running of the stator and the reg/rec worked fine again. The moral of the story, don't run a 200W+ stator and a 150W Baja Designs reg/rec, it can't handle it and will simply shut itself down to try to save itself.

    As for the LC4, I suppose this could have been what happened to your reg/rec, or it could in fact have been bad. I don't recall, but did you try the larger reg/rec with the stock stator?

    Also, it's not ideal for alot of people, but if the headlight can be wired to run off the stator, then as with my 650R, the headlights drain off some of the excess so that the reg/rec doesn't have such a big job. The hard part for me is if it would even be possible to run a headlight off the 3 phase stator in the LC4. I suppose you could just run off of two legs, I believe this is how the CDI/ignition gets it's juice with only two of the three legs. However, I think this would unbalance the three legs too much. I'm just talking here...

    Obviously, buying the right stuff, stator and reg/rec, is ideal. You are the guinea pig, and I wish you luck. Keep us posted, as I'm eyeing this mod hard.
    #59
  20. Curmudgeon

    Curmudgeon Enjoying the ride

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    As a certified, Master of the Obvious, I say a multi meter with Min Max, a TC, and a rear rack pack, and your ready for a pretty detailed study of ambient temperature to whip hand aggression / coolant temp to stator temp.

    Patrick
    #60