Electric output on LC4?

Discussion in 'Thumpers' started by Airhead, Jun 8, 2005.

  1. Luke

    Luke GPoET&P

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    No, my idea was to use the actual BMW regulator. Those bikes get a lot of hours put on them and are pretty reliable, so that might be a good alternative if you're having problems with the electrosport products.

    The 400W stators were only the GS Dakar models, or something like that. I remember the parts fiche mentioned the power rating when I looked. From memory, the GS regulators are quite a bit bigger than the KTM one, but that makes sense if they can handle a lot more power.

    There is some space between the carb and the starter that might work for mounting one. You might also want to run the regulator output leads straight to the battery, as the stock wires are very thin.
    #81
  2. Earthscape

    Earthscape Have ya got a helmut?

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    Yes, I understood that. I was looking for any information on the size of the BMW regulator, figuring that a replacement for it would be similar in size.
    #82
  3. Luke

    Luke GPoET&P

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    Ah, sorry, I misunderstood you. Offhand, the V-strom and KTM LC8 also have big stators. 450W. The V-strom reg has a connector right on it, so will be hard to retrofit. The KTM is a possibility (and only $100)

    I just found the 650 faq here, which says the regulator is 28mm x 91mm x 81mm.
    #83
  4. Earthscape

    Earthscape Have ya got a helmut?

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    Well, I didn't hear back from Electrosport, and didn't want to just watch the rest of the riding season (and best part) slip away. So I ordered a KTM 950 regulator from Bike Bandit. Unfortunately, just before I ordered it, the price went up by $8. Oh well. I was able to cheat slightly, since I have a 950 Adventure I was able to look at the regulator on it to see if it could work before ordering one.

    Here's a comparison of the stock 640 regulator and the 950 regulator, the 950 regulator is on the left, and is significantly bigger than the 640 regulator:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    The connectors on the 950 regulator are also different. It has the 3 input stator yellow wires, but has 2 ground wires and 2 +12v wires. According to the 950 wiring diagram, both ground and +12v wires eventually go to the same place on the bike.

    [​IMG]

    Using all soldered connections, I combined the positive and negative leads, and put the connectors for the 640 onto the 950 regulator.

    [​IMG]

    This photo shows the 950 regulator on the 640, but not quite finished. After this picture, I had to drill out new holes for the mounting studs because the 950 regulator is enough larger than the 640 regulator that it can't be moved back onto the mounting plate far enough for the holes to align with the studs. You can get around this at least 2 ways. 1, do the same thing as I did on the Electrosport regulator, drill new holes and enlarge the top part to fit the nuts on the studs. 2, what I did, drill new holes for the mounting studs so that the studs partially protrude in the original mounting holes, and then use short bolts into the original holes from the top. Since the bolts going in from the top have the same thread as the studs, the threads from the bolts grab onto the threads from the studs and hold everything in place. A little aluminum foil can be used as a spacer to in case the bolts aren't close enough to engage the studs. I know this is hard to understand. I'll try to get a pic of this somehow soon. Even though not much thread overlaps, it seems to hold more than enough.

    [​IMG]

    So far a test ride shows it is working. After about an hour ride non-stop, I pulled the seat off as quick as possible and checked out the regulator. It was quite warm, but was not anywhere near too hot to touch (it was also a cold evening). Only time will tell, but given the 950 is rated to put out 450 watts, it should handle the increased 640 output. I may look into putting a small PC fan on top of the regulator to try and move some air over it better under the seat.

    Next up, is to install one of these IPF bulbs in the low beam side. I still have a working 70 watt bulb in the high beam side (HUGE difference), but when it goes I'll put one of these in there too (H1 bulbs are neither low or high beam specific). These are real 65 watt CLEAR bulbs from Best Rest http://www.bestrestproducts.com/celestia/order/orderform/?recno=66

    [​IMG]
    #84
  5. faceman

    faceman currently ADV-less..

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    Go HID... more light,..less wattage
    #85
  6. dirty_sanchez

    dirty_sanchez Dirty_Sanchez

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    I finally got off of the pot and pulled the trigger on the ESG950 stator from Electrosport and the 950 voltage regulator bought from Munn's.

    Given the very limited amount of real estate under the seat, heat, and larger voltage regulator size, I've settled on mounting the new VR below the waterpump on the left side of the bike. I'll have to fashion some sort of small bracket to complete this new dynamo.

    I figure if BMW is mounting their VR's out in the clean air they might be onto something, so I'll mount this VR in the clean airflow as well.

    More photos and story at 10.

    Dirty
    #86
  7. Earthscape

    Earthscape Have ya got a helmut?

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    Not trying to change your mind, but keep in mind the engine gives off a lot of heat itself, especially where the air flows out from the radiator and down under the gas tank (plus back off the left header and coolant hoses). If you can get your hand down there while riding you can feel how much heat there is. Might still be better than under the seat though. I'd love to see a pic of what you come up with. It's worth the trouble.
    #87
  8. BillyD

    BillyD Been here awhile

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    In as much as you have to redo the connectors on the Electrosport VR and figure out the CDI interface anyway, and considering what seems to be some legitimate, pervasive quality concerns with the Electrosport VR, why wouldn't one simply use a Yamaha VR for a Raptor. Is it too underrated for the new stator output in a manner similar to the stock KTM VR?
    #88
  9. Earthscape

    Earthscape Have ya got a helmut?

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    BillyD, not sure anyone has an answer for you. It's possible, but I think (and Luke knows way more about this stuff than me) this stator in the LC4 flywheel puts out more power than it does when in the Raptor.

    Hopefully no bad luck, but so far the 950 regulator seems to be up to the task with the new stator. I was initially thinking of adding some air flow to the regulator under the seat, but I compared the "hotness" of the regulator on the 640 to the regulator on the actual KTM950 after a ride, and it gets far hotter on the 950 than it does on the 640 - so that leads me to believe that it's probably not being stressed on the 640 with the high output stator.

    One other thing I've noticed is that the stock wire connecting the charging system to the battery is mighty spindly. I might try connecting one of the regulator wires directly to the battery terminal (Luke, is that legal? - one wire from the regulator into the harnes at the original connection, and the other regulator wire directly to the battery?).

    Luke, if you're still reading, one other question you may be able to answer - I haven't found a good explanation anywhere for what the difference is between a stator/regulator/rectifier setup, and an alternator setup. My Triumph has an alternator, it's mounted behind the cylinders and is air cooled, is rated at only 300 watts, but in practice seems to put out more usable power than that (dual 65 watt headlights, dual tail lights, heated grips, heated vest, and even at idle doesn't seem to be stressed). What's the difference? (besides being very heavy...:ear )
    #89
  10. crazybrit

    crazybrit Long timer

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    On my 625SXC I have both outputs of the RR connected direct to the battery terminals (disconnected from the wiring harness), it's a Luke-ism, from his 640Adv. So you should be able to do the same on the 950 one. I had a wiring harness fault on my 625, good output from R/R but something bogus in the wiring causing current to drop and the battery would discharge. After 2 hours of debugging at Luke's I just punted and copied his bypass though I used the correct connectors sourced from EasternBeaver .... one of these days I'll try and find where the issue is.
    #90
  11. Luke

    Luke GPoET&P

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    Funny you should drag this thread up.....

    I just installed this upgrade yesterday. I swear this mod is cursed. You and Dirty had carb troubles after installing it, and I blew a headgasket after ordering the parts. I used a stator from rm-stator, as the one I ordered from electrosport was stolen in transit.


    The 950 has a 450W stator, so the 950 regulator should have no trouble with this stator. Mine just got a little bit warm, testing with both full and no load.


    As you notice, the stock wiring from the regulator to the battery isn't very good. Wiring the regulator directly to the battery is a very good upgrade, especially if any accessories are connected to the battery. Connect the black regulator wire to the - terminal, and the red wire to the + terminal through a fuse.

    This upgrade works well for the stock stator as well. It's also popular on other bike models.



    Permanent magnet alternators have poor output at low rpms. In the case of the LC4, it's 110W at idle. The 200W spec is for speeds above 4krpm. This is pretty typical for this type of stator. An alternator with a field winding (like in cars) can change the strength of the magnetic field as needed, which makes the output more consistant over a range of rpms. Your triumph alternator probably puts out close to the rated 300W at idle, so it's spec is only 1.5x better, but the useful output is 3x better.

    Basically, alternators are rated for maximum power, but what we care about is the minimum power.

    It is possible to make the output of a PM alternator more consistant over rpm, but that would require either reducing the overall power output, or increasing its size.
    #91
  12. dirty_sanchez

    dirty_sanchez Dirty_Sanchez

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    Luke- I almost feel like we're trying to stumble into King Tut's Tomb with all of the seemingly unrelated issues.

    Both of us with blown head gaskets, rough idle, inability to rev., etc.

    Well, my inability to rev was noticed as soon as I took the valve cover off only to discover this-sorry for the size.

    [​IMG]

    Would you believe the wobble heads on both intake rockers broke clean off of the adjusting studs!

    With nearly 0.25" of intake valve gap, it's a wonder the bike ran at all.

    Don't know how this happened, but it's been fixed for awhile now.

    I have an '07 640A now and once I get the HID/Centech/Grips/Jacket installed and sorted, I'll get this pesky stator upgrade with the Electrosport unit along with the KTM 950 regulator completed.

    I decided a better V/R mounting location is in front of the head tube between the radiators using the steering stop bolts for mounting a simple bracket. I already have the aluminum and a friend with a press brake.

    Before the wobble head fiasco I did ride around the neighborhood with both HID's ablaze and grips turned up to 11 just to get a feel for the charging voltage with the hardwired datel fed by the centech. It showed anywhere from 14.1v at higher revs down to 13.6v at idle.

    At least by seeing these figures, the Electrosport stator/ KTM 950 V/Reg. really does make more farkle juice than stock.

    This quest for more electons sort of feels like we're on a quest for the Holy Grail.

    I do think we're close though!

    Dirty
    #92
  13. Luke

    Luke GPoET&P

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    Holy grail indeed. I didn't realize you had as much engine trouble as I did. I'd just as soon skip the rebuilds and take a double helping of peril.


    For the output I measured:

    rpm current (A)
    1500 10.5
    2000 13
    2500 14.5
    3000 14.7

    Compared to stock:
    1500 9
    2000 11
    3000 13
    6000 14

    The stock numbers are from KTM. They agree with what I measured on mine, but I don't remember exactly, and can't find my notes.

    The RM stator has one pole wound for the raptor's ignition, which I left unconnected. If the stator were rewound, that's an easy extra 5% of output available. Better wire may also give an extra 5% at idle. The wire on there is pretty thin.
    #93
  14. dirty_sanchez

    dirty_sanchez Dirty_Sanchez

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    I'm embarassed to say, but I'm pretty convinced that my blown head gasket was due to 0.5 liter too much oil. Hard lesson learned.

    Rough idle- excessive valve lash gap.

    Dirty
    #94
  15. meat popsicle

    meat popsicle Ignostic

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    A whole crew of testers, with Luke to boot. :beer

    KTM is probably not thrilled about having one of their systems upgraded easily, so the Austrian Secret Service (no you won't find their name online... :wink:) has likely visited each of your LC4s and sabotaged them.

    Pre-ride safety checks are in order people!
    #95
  16. dirty_sanchez

    dirty_sanchez Dirty_Sanchez

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    Peril with a liberal dose of uncertainty....

    I like:clap

    Dirty
    #96
  17. Cruiser

    Cruiser Cruiser.. 16 beta 350rr, 04 KTM 525sx/exc FS

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    Just a quick question,, to all you guys who went big with the stator.. want to sell me the stocker?? Just took mine out.. Thinking about this mod and the bad karma that follows it makes me worry about it...
    #97
  18. dirty_sanchez

    dirty_sanchez Dirty_Sanchez

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    I'm keeping my karma because some day I might need to use it.

    If I find another, I'll let you know.

    Dirty
    #98
  19. mrlarner

    mrlarner Adventurer

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    Hello fellow kooks :bow. New, wana-be-proud owner of a 1999 (or is it 2000? the guy i bought it from rhino-linered the plastics...) 640 Adventure.

    Seems like I've been cursed from the get go and need to replace the stock stator. I read this thread while back and scratched my beard thinking about going for it, but now that i have to replace the stator, i'm thinking it's a good way to go. any updates on this?

    It's been awhile since any replies...hope you guys are off popping wheelies with warm hands! [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    :muutt

    -matt
    #99
  20. meat popsicle

    meat popsicle Ignostic

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    This is the best place I could think of to mention this gadget I found to y'all:


    Argus Analyzer's Battery Bug "Deep Cycle Monitor"


    [​IMG]

    Luke? :D