Electric scoots and motos under 100V/10kW

Discussion in 'Electric Motorcycles' started by voltsxamps, Jun 15, 2016.

  1. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2016
    Oddometer:
    1,669
    Location:
    +positively grounded-
    I had given thought of where I could read/post about electric bikes and scooters in the advrider forum, and after reviewing what type of bikes & scooters belong here in the scooter thread, it seems appropriate for rides powered by drumming bunnies and coppertops to reside here up to a certain power level. I'll leave it up to the moderators & administrators to edit and update the criteria as the era of EV is upon us and becoming a part of the landscape, er.. roadscape.

    Giving some thought to where that line is drawn between what constitutes an electric scooter or an electric motorcycle is blurry in some cases. Just looking at my ride, questions immediately follow, "what is that?' etc.. Seems that because the Grom and others like it reside here, it made sense for it's electric clone to be discussed here as well. Notably though, Zero's, Brammo's, and the like are on the other side of the pond; main difference being it's higher motor/controller/battery rating. Now unless you're a volt-head like myself, how do you know where that division between electric wee beastie's/mid-powered electrics end and the other more powerful electric sport/DS/MX begin.. and to the point of this thread, where to post about it?

    For now there is a pretty wide chasm between e-moto's like the one I ride and a Zero DSR, but there are a number of e-moto's that have just hit the scene in the past few months are filling in the middle ground in price, power, and size. Where do they fit in? Well, a scooter is pretty easy to define:

    If it has an area forward of the seat that is lower, allowing some sort of passthrough. Secondarily if it has a floorboard, rear engine that moves with the swing arm, an automatic transmission, left hand brake, etc, but we know there are some exceptions to this.

    [​IMG]


    Okay, easy enough for anything that meets the definition of a scooter, but what about small bikes? As stated in Photog's sticky, small bikes/wee beasties, are welcome in the scooter forum, but is the criteria we place on defining what a small bike for ICE the same we apply towards electrics?

    It's clear that motorcycles of 125cc's or less are here, but in the absence of CC's, an electrical converted equivalent must be used. Or perhaps, it's all about the physical size of the bike, irregardless of the power. I know it may seem that I'm asking a question that doesn't need answering, but recently I posted a full size electric bike in the street bike section, only for it to disappear to the 2nd page and beyond in little time, and the only responses were, "it was too slow" and "why is it being posted here", bringing me to where do these mid-powered electrics belong? One had even posted that they think it's about time electric bikes should have their own forum.

    [​IMG]

    Mods/Admins are invited to provide their thoughts of course. Until then, I've created this thread as a place where electric scooters & e-moto's can be discussed. As I am not a moderator/admin here, I cannot dictate what exactly should/should not go here, but as an EV enthusiast, I propose all <100v / <10kW electric motorcycles and scooters can be shared and discussed here and since some electric motorcycles and scooters can get pretty small in power, I propose a limit of nothing less than 48v be shared here.
    #1
    victor441 and EvrythingAwesom like this.
  2. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2016
    Oddometer:
    1,669
    Location:
    +positively grounded-
    There are a pair of recently announced bikes approaching the performance (and exceeding the price) of a Zero S, sharing the same OEM frame & fairings:

    [​IMG]
    The first is from ZEV M-13S (& it's European version, M-11S) $12,490


      • Range at 55 mph 129 km / 80 miles
      • Range at 70 mph 113 km / 70 miles
      • Max continuous speed 80 mph / 127 kmh
      • Continuous power output 13 kw
      • Peak power motor rating 45 kw


      • Motor Torque - 280 Nm (206 lb ft) at 170 rpm measured at the air gap OD at 180 amps
      • Motor Design - In wheel hub motor with oil cooling. 11.77 inches OD at the air gap.


      • Controller - 650 amp, regen, 3 speed touch button controls both amps and volts. Reverse function.


      • Front brake - right hand control, dual 260 mm discs, dual twin piston radial caliper
      • Rear brake - right foot control, single 220 mm disc, dual piston caliper.


      • Battery Capacity - 8.4 kWh
      • Battery type - 100 ah cells, LFMP.
      • Charging time - 4.5 hours on 110 v, 3.25 on 220 v
      • Charger - Switchable between 220 and 110 volt input. Not built into the bike. 18 amps, 1980 watts.


      • Vehicle weight - 442 lbs
      • Seat height - 29.9 inches
      • Wheelbase - 55.74 inches / 1416 mm
      • Wheel Size - 17 inch front and rear
      • Tire Size - Front 110/70-17, Rear 130/70-17
      • Every bike has both a side and a center stand.
      • The bike has Reverse mode to assist you in parking and in tight spots.
      • 37 mm lower front fork tubes.
    http://www.zelectricvehicle.com/30.html

    [​IMG]
    The second version is from Volt, price TBA

    Highest Speed: 120km/h

    Load: 150kg
    Rated Voltage of Motor: DC96V
    Voltage and Capacity of Battery: 96V/60AH
    Charging Time: Up to 6 Hours approx
    Battery Type: Lithium Battery
    Range per Charge: 120km

    Dimensions: Length x 2100, Width x 680, Height x 1185 mm

    Integral weight:
    140kg

    Brakes: Hydraulic Front & Rear Disk Brakes with APS

    Lights: Daylight running LED / "Ultra-Brite" LED Main Light

    http://www.voltmotorcycles.com/electric-motorcycle-volt220


    Neither of these, according to their manufacturer's specs, have a greater speed than a Zero S, despite their projected costs exceeding the Zero. (and no mention of acceleration times). Good looks alone won't get them there. If either company hopes to create many owners, they'll need to either increase performance, or figure out how to sell these at a much lower price.
    #2
    Leolivinlife likes this.
  3. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2016
    Oddometer:
    1,669
    Location:
    +positively grounded-
    #3
    Leolivinlife likes this.
  4. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2016
    Oddometer:
    1,669
    Location:
    +positively grounded-
    #4
  5. dsergison

    dsergison Adventurer

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2014
    Oddometer:
    92
    Location:
    Peoria, IL. could be worse?
    Ought to be Watts categorized, not volts. As watts = power. Volts means literally nothing alone. C'on. High school stuff.

    Are you trolling me Mr voltsxamps? :)

    take the one above, nominal voltage 88 x max cont amps 80a
    = 7kw continuous power. =9.3hp This is, I think, a more practivcal comparison than than peak power.


    Let us not fall prey to the ever increasing Voltage ratings and marketing gimmics of power tools, nor the "peak instantaneous hp" of lawn mower marketers etc...

    Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
    #5
  6. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2016
    Oddometer:
    1,669
    Location:
    +positively grounded-
    The OP originally had a limit of 10Kw as the limit in the text body after my first edit, however, I had already put 100v in the title after posting and could not modify it, so I removed 10Kw and left 100v to match the title. Compare one motorcycle manufacturer to another, and it seems that there is quite a bit of exaggeration in both directions to underrate and overrate wattage for either marketing purposes or to stay under certain limits to avoid licensing requirements for sales, making the standard method of calculating power based on mfr.'s wattage flawed.

    Seems that the same marketing gimmicks of power tools is also alive and well with el-moto's.

    For example, if you see the post below, it is advertised as a 500w scooter, but can travel at 40mph speeds. Both Zuma and Grom clones are sold as 2000w scooters, but have a max speed of 38mph. Factoring that wind resistance is practically the same, there is less than an 80lb difference between the Daymak and the clones, yet there is a 4x difference in wattage ratings.

    The Voltbike a few posts below it is another example. Same 500w rating, but half the voltage and half the speed. The primary reason for these low ratings (and why they have "functioning" pedals) is to comply with Canadian vehicle codes.

    The one thing that has a relative constant is the voltage, so for simplicity, it was chosen over wattage, but for the sake of mathematics, I've re-edited the OP to include the original 10Kw as well as 100v as a suggestive limit.
    #6
  7. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2016
    Oddometer:
    1,669
    Location:
    +positively grounded-
    This is a nice little gem: Daymak Chameleon: a 200lb e-scoot with a 500w motor that can travel up to 40mph:
    $1849 with 84v 12Ah SLA for 40mi range @20mph
    $3449 with 84v 24Ah lithium for 75mi range @20mph

    [​IMG]

    Max speed can be set from 20 to 40mph, depending on provincial/state laws, and allows the rider to increase acceleration, torque, range or simply lock the motor through an app.

    [​IMG]
    Approximately $200 shipping in SW US
    Sales (UT): 949-231-2862 or daves@daymak.com

    This scooter has good looks and a great review from Electric Ride Review


    First thing I'd do is remove those goofy, useless pedals though.
    #7
  8. EvrythingAwesom

    EvrythingAwesom Long timer

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2016
    Oddometer:
    1,406
    Location:
    Bahamas


    This is a good thread, thanks for starting it.

    I take Electric Ride Review's reviews with a grain of salt. He doesn't disclose what he's being paid, so he's not an "independent" reviewer. Also, from experience, it takes 2 weeks to see whether these ebikes and e-scooters will be reliable. The public has been burned, big time, by many electric scooter companies that are now dead. There's a "graveyard" website. https://www.electricbike.com/scooter-graveyard/

    Was able to own/ride/race/test some of these models on the electric scooter graveyard.

    As far the bigger ones, the electric motorcycles, the companies have all failed, prior to Zero, Brammo. You can follow the stories back 10 years at VisForVoltage forum. (The old VisForVoltage forum was hacked, then booby-trapped with viruses.)

    However, 2016 el-motos from China are a success -- very very affordable, probably 3X more efficient, no chains, tubeless tires, reliable, maintenance-free almost, good ergo's, powerful.
    #8
    Leolivinlife likes this.
  9. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2016
    Oddometer:
    1,669
    Location:
    +positively grounded-
    Looks like I found the Chameleon's less lit-up twin, also from Canada:

    [​IMG]

    Weighing at just 70kg/154lb with the same 500W (1000W Peak) rating as the Chameleon, (but almost half the voltage), the VoltBike Metro Plus 48V 20Ah battery has a limited top speed of 32km/20mph, so strictly a residential commuter, but with a range per charge of up to 43 miles (which is par for 20Ah bikes moving at 20mph).

    Just like the Chameleon, it has foldable functioning pedals to comply with pedelec laws, permitting these to be classed in with electric bicycles, and at a max speed of 20mph, why not, although in some states (like California), speeds of up to 28mph is allowed for sub 1000w bikes with pedals, so if the restriction can be bypassed (or shunted for volt-heads) then it may be a worthwhile e-bike/scoot for those who also want access to Class I bike trails.

    Could be a great bike for someone getting around on a college campus.

    Sells for just $939 Canadian ($718.16 USD) and comes with a “motorcycle grade” helmet. It's affordable scooting and ships for a fair price too ($69 shipping U.S.)
    #9
  10. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2016
    Oddometer:
    1,669
    Location:
    +positively grounded-
    Hey Evrything, I think I found a clone of your clone! Daymak EM1 $2199

    [​IMG]

    While not exactly the same as yours, it has the same type of wheels, tires, brake levers, headlights, seating, etc. and may be equipped with lithium batteries instead of SLA's, though not implicitly stated.

    http://www.daymak.com/pages/scooters/em1.php

    • Motor 500W
    • Battery: 72v/20ah
    • Range: up to 65km
    • Battery Life (charges): 300-400
    • Brakes: Hydraulic Disc Brakes
    • Indicator: Digital speedo with odometer
    • Headlight: LED
    • Tire size: 130/70-12
    • Charge Time: 6-8 hours
    • Charger: 72V2.5A
    • Max load: 300 lbs
    • Security: Alarm System
    • Weight: 115KG or 253lbs

    Like the Chameleon, the EM1 comes standard with the Daymak Drive Turbo controller so you can configure the EM1 via Bluetooth to adjust acceleration, torque and more. It's unclear if the battery pack is SLA or lithium (300-400 charge cycles is specified), but the weight of the bike at 253lbs is lighter than the SLA version, so it's plausible, especially for the asking price of $2199. Curiously, the charge time is the same as SLA, but that could be due to a low C rate charger.

    Dealer locator: http://www.daymak.com/pages/storelocator/
    1-800-649-9320 | email info@daymak.com
    #10
  11. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2016
    Oddometer:
    1,669
    Location:
    +positively grounded-
    As I continued my search for sub $2000 lithium powered electrics, I came across the Jetson.

    [​IMG]

    Has your typical 40 mi range @ 20mph for $1716 on Amazon and offered in 10 colors. Another 500w 48v that is spec'd to be an electric bicycle (with those pedals), but is built in scooter fashion. The Jetson and Voltbike match up on voltage, speed, range, wheel size, and general features, so why the $1000 difference? Lithium.

    So to review the electric bikes in this thread so far, we have starting at the lowest price range:

    Voltbike ....... 48v S.L.A. 20mph 40mi range $718
    e-Grom ....... 72v S.L.A. 37mph 40mi range $1100
    Jetson ........ 48v Lithium 20mph 40mi range $1716
    Chameleon... 84v S.L.A. 40mph 40mi range $1849
    Daymak EM1.. 72v Lithium 20mph 43mi range $2199
    Chameleon ... 84v Lithium 40mph 75mi range $3449
    Evoke S ....... 72v Lithium 56mph 70mi range $4999
    Bolt M-1 ......... 72v Lithium 40mph 50mi range $5495
    Evoke S ...... 100v Lithium 74mph 93mi range $6499
    Enertia Plus .. 88v Lithium 60mph 80mi range $10995
    ZEV M-13S ... 96v Lithium 80mph 80mi range $12490

    edit: I've included the SLA e-Grom and a Bolt M1 from page 3 for comparison.
    #11
  12. dsergison

    dsergison Adventurer

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2014
    Oddometer:
    92
    Location:
    Peoria, IL. could be worse?
    Well as long as your talking small electrics, might I put a plug in for a kids introduction to motorcycling? (see what I did there)

    http://osetbikes.com/us/bikes/

    my 6yr old boy had a 16" wheel OSET. he loved it. It would go about 5 miles of moderate mtn bike singletrack per charge.

    The 20" wheeled one I could ride. very torquey.
    #12
    EvrythingAwesom and voltsxamps like this.
  13. EvrythingAwesom

    EvrythingAwesom Long timer

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2016
    Oddometer:
    1,406
    Location:
    Bahamas


    Hahaha... thanks for reminding me ... Oset trials motorcycle company has the most-entertaining motorbike video commercial of all time.. on YouTube. Fun, fun, fun to watch. There's even a "how they did it" video of this awesome commercial, somewhere.


    #13
    voltsxamps likes this.
  14. EvrythingAwesom

    EvrythingAwesom Long timer

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2016
    Oddometer:
    1,406
    Location:
    Bahamas
    Have kids? Gotta' see this..

    #14
    voltsxamps likes this.
  15. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2016
    Oddometer:
    1,669
    Location:
    +positively grounded-
    My kids & I watched both of those videos and enjoyed them, thanks!
    #15
  16. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2016
    Oddometer:
    1,669
    Location:
    +positively grounded-
    There’s a new scooter company out of Taiwan founded by a former HTC executive that I've been keeping a close eye on: gogoro with 95kph max speed and 0-50kph in as little as 3.7 seconds, 17% quicker than the average 125cc scooter. Innovative features are definitely worth checking out, even for ICE heads. It's biggest difference? A network of swappable batteries to ease range anxiety.

    [​IMG]

    I believe this has earned the title of being the Tesla of e-scooters, with their proposed energy network and intelligent e-scooter.

    Marketed as the world's first and only smart scooter, it has received major accolades:
    These are just some of the scooter's stand out features: waterproofed to the floorboard, strong lightweight frame, swappable faceplates, smart watch interconnectivity, smartmode, customizable/programmable dashboard and controller, smartphone diagnostics, smart vision, smartkey/smartlock.

    Screen Shot 2016-06-17 at 8.57.30 PM.png
    Screen Shot 2016-06-17 at 8.58.22 PM.png

    gogoro currently has 6 models: gogoro lite and gogoro plus, starting as low as $1656 before govt. subsidies; it’s quicker 2 series: Delight, Plus, Deluxe, and S2 starting at $2055.

    I''m really looking forward to these making it to the U.S. soon.

    https://www.gogoro.com/
    #16
    MJSfoto1956 and EvrythingAwesom like this.
  17. Cromoth

    Cromoth fan of the magic carpet ride

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2010
    Oddometer:
    1,080
    Location:
    MA
    where's the best thread to discuss Zero FX/DS/DSR? I like what you've set up here. It would be great if the mods made an official category Bikes/Electric...for adventuring like this guy going around the US http://www.benswing.com/#!2016-road-trip-blog/o9zcc
    #17
    voltsxamps likes this.
  18. JerryH

    JerryH To Each Their Own Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2009
    Oddometer:
    8,531
    Location:
    Chandler, AZ
    I agree there should be an entirely different forum (like battle scooters) that would be specific to electric bikes of all sizes. There is very little common ground between enthusiasts of ICE powered bikes and enthusiasts of electric powered bikes. They are pretty much two totally different things. I counted 5 different threads on the first page of battle scooters about electric bikes.
    #18
    voltsxamps likes this.
  19. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2016
    Oddometer:
    1,669
    Location:
    +positively grounded-
    #19
  20. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2016
    Oddometer:
    1,669
    Location:
    +positively grounded-
    Founded by MotoGP star Sete Gibernau’s grandfather back in 1958, Bultaco built a series of successful road and road race bikes through the 60s and 70s, peaking in the late 70s when Spanish rider Angel Nieto rode the brand to two 50cc world Grand Prix championships, and multiple wins in the 125cc Grand Prix class. Between the 1970s and when the brand name was last used in 2001, Bultaco was best known for its two-stroke off road and trials bikes. But Paco Bultó, Bultaco’s founder, wasn’t himself a fan of the peaky two-stroke powerband. His son Paco Bultó junior remembers that his father "always said that the ideal scenario would be a constant torque engine with the same response as any system for a motorcycle without gear shifts… And at the end he said: as if we had an electrical engine."

    This led to Bultaco recently developing two powerful supersport electrics, the Rapitan and the Rapitan Sport, along with a trio of smaller e-moto's named Brinco R-E, C, and S, featuring 2000w motors that can travel up to 37mph or as slow as 15.5mph depending on the spec. Starts at $4827 with configurations weighing in as little as 86lbs.

    [​IMG]

    Available in street and XC form and priced right between the Bomber and Oset's with performance between the two. You could spend 1/3-1/4 of the price of a Brinco to achieve the same power and speed with, say, an e-Grom, but would not get Brinco's ultra light weight.

    [​IMG]
    Bultaco street legal Brinco R-E

    http://www.bultaco.es/en/motos

    [​IMG]

    e-bikes like the Bomber and the Brincos blur the lines between where an e-bike ends and an e-moto begins, but despite having pedals, both are classed as motorcycles given their top speed, though the Brinco's can be dialed down to meet meet specific regulations within the EU and specific countries.
    #20
    Cromoth and EvrythingAwesom like this.