Electric scoots and motos under 100V/10kW

Discussion in 'Electric Motorcycles' started by voltsxamps, Jun 15, 2016.

  1. EvrythingAwesom

    EvrythingAwesom Long timer

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    The Gogoro "vision" is a LOT bigger ... hear it:



    P.S. The Edgadget background screen has those "hypnotic" lights that could fry your Alpha brain waves, imo.
    #21
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  2. EvrythingAwesom

    EvrythingAwesom Long timer

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    From what little I know about Taiwan and scooters, the Gogoro should be priced at $800 -- it doesn't come with a battery, when you buy it!

    Check out the stories about how much the monthly cost of battery swapping is.
    #22
  3. EvrythingAwesom

    EvrythingAwesom Long timer

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    I'm surprised the bike spokes don't just shatter, with 13KW electric motors ..

    #23
  4. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

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    Awesome TED talk from Horace Luke. Thanks for sharing it, as I learned quite a bit about the relationship between PM, mega city growth, energy use, and transportation.

    image.jpg

    My biggest takeaway was the impact on our health based on the choice of the type of energy we use.

    image.jpg

    The problem of air pollution in someone else's back yard soon becomes the problem in everyone's backyard. We can do something about it.

    image.jpg

    The MSRP seems reasonable to me. The speed alone gives me an idea of the quality and cost of the controller. The smart tech involved quite a bit of R&D, which is part of the cost, but mostly, the energy network is the real reason for the proof of concept, much like Elon Musk building the Tesla in order to create the Gigafactory.

    This is the beginning of necessary global change. I applaud Tesla and gogoro for pioneering tangible and sensible tech that will impact our world for the better.
    #24
  5. EvrythingAwesom

    EvrythingAwesom Long timer

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    The only unique thing about Gogoro is the water-cooling for the controller and motor. Water-cooling allows twice the power to be run thru, without overheating, just like gassers.



    I ride el-moto's for the same reason, health, my health in particular. Don't want COPD, as my Harley-owning friends have already learned, too late, and incurable.

    Life is priceless, obviously.

    However, with respect, my long experience, with e-scooters's and gas scooters, tells me that Gogoro scooters will fail, and this company go bankrupt. Bankruptcy is defined as any negative cash flow situation.


    Here are my reasons/opinions ..

    - Open drive belts. Used by the quadruple-failed EgoVehicles, chassis also made in Taiwan. All e-scooters with open drive belts have failed. The Zero's on adventures were modified to chains.

    - No hub motor! What an obsolete design!

    - Centralized smarts .. controlled easily by Big Brother in the future. Unless these scooters are hacked to work off any energy, as in "open" architecture, later.

    - Taiwan govenments gave EVT $40M and it also failed.

    - Only Tesla knows how to make a great BMS. Since 100% of non-China electric scooter companies have failed, it would be wise to see if Gogoro knows how to make a good BMS. Even an American cruise-bomber electronic builder failed to make a good BMS on a Thailand-made electric scooter (Tiger Motorcycles, now bankrupt, and closed.)

    - The price is too high. They only sold 4,000 units, then utter silence on sales statistics -- probably bad, since December 2015.

    - Doesn't seem to have a motion-sensing alarm! What a fundamental goof! If they don't have an alarm on their scooters, it shows their management is full of hubris, not having learned anything from Chinese success. One out of every five bicycles is stolen, every year, in North American cities. (Mine included.)

    - China entered the market, at the same time as the Gogoro launch, with an $800 Lithium scooter, where the buyer owns the scooter **and** the battery.


    ---
    (EDITED TO, BELOW)


    I ride el-moto's for the same reason, health, my health in particular. Don't want COPD, as my Harley-owning friends have already learned, too late. COPD is an incurable disease, apparently, according to mainstream medicine. There probably is a cure, but not according to Western doctors, anyway.

    Life is priceless, obviously.

    However, with respect, my long experience, with e-scooters's and gas scooters, tells me that Gogoro scooters will fail, and this company go bankrupt. Bankruptcy is defined as any negative cash flow situation.


    Here are my reasons/opinions ..

    - Open drive belts. Used by the quadruple-failed EgoVehicles, chassis also made in Taiwan. All e-scooters with open drive belts have failed. The Zero's on adventures were modified to chains.

    - No hub motor! What an obsolete design!

    - Centralized smarts .. controlled easily by Big Brother in the future. Unless these scooters are hacked to work off any energy, as in "open" architecture, later.

    - Taiwan govenments gave EVT $40M and it also failed.

    - Only Tesla knows how to make a great BMS. Since 100% of non-China electric scooter companies have failed, it would be wise to see if Gogoro knows how to make a good BMS. Even an American cruise-bomber electronic builder failed to make a good BMS on a Thailand-made electric scooter (Tiger Motorcycles, now bankrupt, and closed.)

    - The price is too high. They only sold 4,000 units, then utter silence on sales statistics -- probably bad, since December 2015.

    - Doesn't seem to have a motion-sensing alarm! What a fundamental goof! If they don't have an alarm on their scooters, it shows their management is full of hubris, not having learned anything from Chinese success. One out of every five bicycles is stolen, every year, in North American cities. (Mine included.)

    - China entered the market, at the same time as the Gogoro launch, with an $800 Lithium scooter, where the buyer owns the scooter **and** the battery.

    - A century of fake-missionaries (not saying Howard Luke is a fraud) have left many electric motorcyclists wary of "the pitch". You can see the failed el-moto's on VisForVoltage, and other forums which are disappearing slowly .. no interest by the public.

    - Sales of the BMW electric scooter was 500 units/year in France. Someone can calculate the Elasticity of Demand from data points .. any Economics 101 student can see that the break even point, on $200M of capital deployed, will never be reached, at the $4000 price point.

    - The entire electric scooter market is Taiwan is apparently only 12,000 units, annually.

    - Someone in Taiwan wrote an article that a good used scooter in Taiwan costs $200-$400 only.

    - The electric Zuma that you're getting for $800, and modding for $200, to 50MPH, is the real **smart scooter** imo.
    #25
  6. EvrythingAwesom

    EvrythingAwesom Long timer

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    Hey, VoltsXamps, you should market your modding services to those $800 el-Zuma buyers.
    #26
  7. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

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    Lol, thanks but I'd rather give the information out on how to do it for free. Paying it forward has always been part of my MO.

    In today's news, Tesla acquired Solar City, following in gogoro's vision in the way of creating a sustainable energy network, though the delivery method differs (battery swap vs charge station)

    Here's something interesting; this guy built his own e-moto for a net cost of $15.61:

    image.jpg

    "Russ Gries is a fellow DIYer, and his electric motorcycle is centered around parts from an old battery-powered forklift. He got it for free from the company he works for, and after acquiring the carcass of a 1976 Honda CB550 for $50, he got to work.

    After about 120 hours and a net cost of $15.61 (that's right, he got money for recycling the rest of the forklift), the result is Voltzilla. See below for specifications, photos, and videos, including the first ride.



    It's a bit different from most electric conversion, in good part because of its forklift ancestry:

    • It is running on 24 volts. Most others are 48 volts and up.
    • "the transmission was retained, because Gries wanted the flexibility of variable gearing for the hills where he lives (most other converted bikes are direct drive from the motor to the rear sprocket)"
    • It has a reverse, just like the forklift
    • The four batteries are from golf carts. They are used 6 volt 220 amp models. Most other conversions use smaller batteries with less capacity
    • Current top speed is around 35 mph (56 kph), but after a drive pulley swap, he should be able to get 60-65 mph (100 kph)
    Because of the heavy batteries, Voltzilla weights about 740 lbs, but its center of gravity is very low and it is well-balanced, so it's not a problem."

    http://www.treehugger.com/cars/voltzilla-diy-electric-motorcycle-made-from-forklift-parts.html :thumb
    #27
  8. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

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    Found this AWD gem from New Zealand, called the Ubco 2x2. Marketed as tough enough to tackle tough terrain, and smart enough to power your tools.

    [​IMG]
    Made from 7000 series aluminum alloy, this sturdy structure can support a load of up to 200 kg (441 lb).

    A pair of 1 kW air-cooled electric motors, one in each wheel’s hub, provide a maximum torque of 90 Nm (66.4 lb-ft), enough to power the bike to a top speed of 45 km/h (28 mph). The power source is a 40 Ah lithium-Ion battery that needs 4 hours for a full recharge. The range is specified at 150 km (93.2 miles) over flat country, reduced to a maximum of 100 km (62.1 miles) when the route involves many elevation changes.

    [​IMG]
    The suspension system includes 36 mm ATF forks in the front and two 32 mm ATR shocks in the rear, all adjustable for air preload and rebound damping. Connected to identical front and rear Innova Tough Gear wheels with 70/100-17 tires; this setup allows the Ubco to handle every terrain with ease.

    [​IMG]
    Weighs just 50 kg (110 lb) and all the heavy parts sit low in the frame, so we should expect it to be very easy to handle. With the two-wheel drive and the copious torque it produces, riding through loose terrain should be just a walk in the park – with the right tires of course. Ubco claims that the bike can tackle gradients of up to 30 percent.

    [​IMG]
    The two cargo racks at both ends of the frame can be customized to support a variety of cases or tools. A 12 V outlet and a USB port on the main console provide power from the battery for different applications, such as charging electronic devices or power tools available on the spot.



    Looks like fun and I love it's utilitarian look and it's functionality. Asking price of $5700 is more than your avg. utility bike/scooter, but it's dual drive terrain tackling configuration that can climb 30 percent grades is not your avg. scoot. It's range of up to 93 miles is rather impressive as well. So if you need to go through mud, up hills, and across streams without a second thought, this might be for you!

    more info: ubcobikes.com
    #28
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  9. EvrythingAwesom

    EvrythingAwesom Long timer

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    Your M.O. is so nice! Good karma to you, for sure!

    Keep in mind that there may be some people who would rather not wrench, one reason being the electrocution risk(s), or a "small mushroom cloud" from a shorted battery, causing blindness (I know this happened to an EV builder.)

    So, you may be doing them a favor.

    IMO, people who subliminally self-sabotage (that's a majority, at some point in their lives) should not wire EV's with >70VDC.

    Your eGrom mods are awesome!

    One California electric trike, the Sparrow, long gone, but is being re-incarnated with Lithium batteries, had a problem with the chassis being "hot" at >50VDC, shocking people.
    #29
  10. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

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    Thanks! It's been a fun journey!

    Today, I discovered a reasonably priced e-MX's from Canada, EM Motorcycles (Electric Motion Motorcycles); featuring 3 models with 5kW motors for about 1/2 the price of an Alta.

    [​IMG]

    Entry model, the EM Lite for beginner trialists. More serious riders will have the choice between the EM Sport and the EM Sport+, the latter with 20% more power and range.

    [​IMG]
    The EM Escape is an Enduro version with a larger LiPo 48.1V / 40Ah battery.

    And for the street, the E-Trek is a road-going model with a 2 kWh battery and 40 to 60 km range (25 to 37 miles). Has an integrated charger and still weighs only 85 kg (187lb). The E-Trek has been homologated in France as a 125cc-equivalent motorcycle.

    Prices start at $7000 USD and top off at $8000 USD. Looks like a good intermediate e-MX to upgrade to, from an OSET or a Bultaco Brinco.

    http://cleanrider.com/new-2016-electric-motion-motorcycles/
    #30
  11. EvrythingAwesom

    EvrythingAwesom Long timer

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    Just my 2-cents on these trail/trial bikes with Etek motors, since me and my friends have built/owned at least 3 similar ones:

    - The EM bikes have relatively low torque, compared to my hub motor'd eGrom.

    - The EM bike here must use a jackshaft, to double-reduce the RPM. My experience with jackshafts (owned 3 el-scoots with jackshafts) is that they don't last more than 6000 kms.
    http://electricmotioncanada.ca/lite/

    - This belt+chain drive / Etek / motor design is relatively inefficient, mine used 6000 watts and was not much faster than my eGrom. The battery (Lithium) kept on running out of breath at top speed.

    - North American ecycles use contactors and relays. For some reason, the Asian ones do not require them. Contactors and relays often failed, for me. See EgoVehicles.com Ego-2 scooters, lots of failed contactors, too. Relays even failed on my US-made battery charger (the relay was controlled by the el-moto's BMS for the Lithium battery, complicated.)


    - LiPo / Li-on battery fires are common .. see video. I do not recommend any Lithium, except for LIFEPO4. See Battery University "spider charts".

    REPEAT: Unless you have an OEM electric vehicle, LiPo Li-on (which includes everything except LIFEPO4) Lithium batteries are dangerous. Even the famous Jack Rickard had a Nissan Leaf module burn up spontaneouly in his "EV Garage".

    If you are a LiPO/Li-on "battery experimenter", use an infrared thermometer to check hot spots. (I did, and discovered contacts that needed contact cleaners.)

    This Li-Po ebike guy is already using Justin's $450 battery charger, too:




    The guy who made the video is a "pro", but he could still get unlucky and burn down his wood house. Lots of those stories on EV club forums, even in the UK.

    KEY INFO: Because the 2016 China-made eGroms use a breakthrough technology that allows SLA's to be used, LiPo is not really a necessity, anymore.


    BATTERY SUMMARY:

    SLA: No BMS required. Electrocution risk at over 60VDC. Shorts can cause plasma fire (blinding) and hydrogen gas leak (burning).

    LIFEPO4: Twice the power density of SLA at 1/2 the weight. BMS mandatory, at least LVC and HVC.

    LiPO/Li-on/NMC, etc: Twice the power density of LIFEPO4, but a fire risk, and complicated BMS, charging, as you can see from the YouTuber.



    MY "PAPER REVIEW" OF THE EM-TRIAL ELECTRIC MOTORCYCLES:

    EM claims, "No fire risk if riding off road in high fire season". I strongly disagree. You'll find LiPO ebikes/escooters on fire stories and video clips all over.
    #31
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  12. EvrythingAwesom

    EvrythingAwesom Long timer

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    Very interesting thread, from an worker inside the company which probably built the ATX-6060 electric scooter, a "fail" on Indegogo or Kickstarter.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/scooters/comments/3cn3im/i_work_for_an_electric_drivetrain_company_our/


    (SNIP)
    The after-kickstarter price will end up being just over $6k. This is the best it will ever be! $5200 is just over our drivetrain price.
    (ENDSNIP)


    The question is: How can China make a Ruckus/Yamaha clone with SLA batteries for only $800-$1100? Or, conversely, why is the American-made electric scooter's Lithium-powered drivetrain costing $5,200 at the factory?

    http://www.autoblog.com/2015/07/15/atx-8080-electric-scooter-raises-ruckus-kickstarter/


    Here'a a photo of an $800 Chinese "Ruckus" vTdYUdp.jpg electric scooter.


    My guess is that the sine-wave controllers have made the China-made hub motors so efficient that SLA batteries can be used insted of Samsung 18650's.

    Furthermore, there is no proof that the ATX-8080 builders know how to create a good BMS -- only Tesla has proven this over a long-enough time, imo.
    #32
  13. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

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    Looking like a near identical 48v 48kph/85km range Vmoto clone,
    image.jpg
    the Flydot EFDM-1 is an $1850 motor driven cycle that's street legal and goes at least 43kph from what can be seen in the lengthy video below:


    I suspect the Flydot clone uses SLA's instead of lithium in the Vmoto to keep cost to a minimum.

    I like the top mounted iPhone holder/speaker/controller and I think this 1500w bike is a great alternative to a similarly priced e-bike, but you can get more power/speed for less money with an e-Grom.
    #33
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  14. EvrythingAwesom

    EvrythingAwesom Long timer

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    Well, I rode one of these Flydot's (this e-motorcycle is sold under various brands/names, like most China-made 'cycles), about a year ago, about 10 kms, so here are my impressions. This is not a "review" per-se, given my limited time on this e-cycle.

    Top speed was an indicated 49kph.
    Styling is a winner -- it folds! Most people who saw it admired it. Would be a thief-magnet, too.
    The anti-theft system locked up the wheels, that even the salesreps could not figure out. Iirc, it had a reverse gear.
    The throttle was almost uncontrollable from a stop. It would leap 10 feet before I could stop it.
    The sidewinder-motor (could be brushed-type, which I do not feel is reliable) delivered power through 2 gears, high and low, with a noticeable lag.
    The ride was okay, but not great. Road imperfections are transmitted to the rider. The eGrom is far cushier.
    Acceleration was mediocre. No G-force, head-snapping felt, other than the initial, dangerous leap from a stop. On rounding curves, it is bike-like, not scooter-like, nor eGrom-like.


    That's my 2 cents.

    ** CAVEAT ** The Asian makers are constantly improving their products. My impressions could be completely out-of-date.
    #34
  15. EvrythingAwesom

    EvrythingAwesom Long timer

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    Please help me find an electric "kick" folding scooter, with these features:

    - A pneumatic flat-free tire of 8" to 10" diameter, with round tire profile.

    - Weight of less than 30 lbs.

    - Folds

    - Uses LIFEPO4 Lithium batteries not Li-on/LiPO.

    - Twist throttle or thumb-push-paddle throttle. Not the pull-trigger throttle found on some, because in my experience, those are dangerous on panic stops. I once got a pull-throttle scooter pulled from the market.

    - Suspension on rear wheel a must. Front suspension would be a bonus.

    - Hub motor, brushless, gearless.

    - Does not have smartphone apps, nor require one.

    - Must be able to get up hills.

    Thanks for all suggestions!
    #35
  16. EvrythingAwesom

    EvrythingAwesom Long timer

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    This is a big-boy's toy, imo. Not practical "transportation".

    Had one similar before it got stolen. It was too attractive. A kid (drug dealear?) on the street offered me twice my cost if I would sell it to him on the spot.

    On downhill fast runs, I discovered that braking was more important than stop speed, but bicycle brakes are not designed for 70kph downhills.

    I used it mainly for getting up steep slopes without pedalling, then whoop it up downhill. That got boring fast.

    An acquantance made an ebike that did a real 120kph. He buklt it with his own handmade dual-disc front brakes. However, wearing full-face motorcycle helmet on an electric "mountain bike" could make people wonder.
    #36
  17. mnutz

    mnutz Adventurer

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    This is a clean air vehicle, 1980 style.

    My dad built it for me, and I don't remember too much about it. I do remember that it zipped around pretty quickly, but didn't hold a charge very long.

    It inspired me to beg my dad nonstop for an XR75. He bought me one shortly thereafter. Awesome dad!
    #37
  18. mnutz

    mnutz Adventurer

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    image.jpeg
    #38
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  19. RCmoto

    RCmoto Long timer

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    great and interesting thread. I agree, sooner or later there will have to be an Electric sub forum, or the dif. sizes/types will all get mixed into scooter/road bike forum sections.
    #39
  20. RRocket

    RRocket Been here awhile

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    I'd LOVE an Alta Redlshift SM (if it wasn't for the price of $14K)


    [​IMG]
    #40
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