Electric scoots and motos under 100V/10kW

Discussion in 'Electric Motorcycles' started by voltsxamps, Jun 15, 2016.

  1. RRocket

    RRocket Been here awhile

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    The story I read is $28 USD a month for unlimited battery swapping.
    #41
  2. RCmoto

    RCmoto Long timer

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    maybe Tesla has plans down the road to make an e-moto something in the giga-factory they're building?
    #42
  3. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

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    Today, I stumbled upon these handmade San Francisco based electrics going up to 50 miles without pedaling, (30-35 miles city) and capable of 40mph speed.

    2016 BOLT M-1 ELECTRIC BIKE


    [​IMG]

    Dubbed the "worlds first hybrid motorbike", the builder's intent was to combine the feel of a motorcycle in a lightweight e-bike design.

    Like a bicycle, the M-1 does not need a license, registration or insurance.

    Key Features:

    – Extended range with quick release batteries: no tools or keys
    – Regenerative braking charges while you ride. 110v charge in 5 hours.
    – Brushless DC motor with one moving part – No maintenance
    –Efficiency display provides real time feedback on power consumption
    – Patented Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are rated for over 2,000 cycles before any noticeable reduction in performance. (you can ride 30 miles a day, every day for 5.5 years)

      • Keyless entry with user-programmable password – never fumble or lose your keys again
      • 5A USB port to charge any device
      • Switch between Sport and Economy Modes with the push of a button
      • Cloud connected security with geo fencing
    Price: Starting at $5,495 MSRP


    Born on the streets of San Francisco, it's main differentiator is manufacturers claim of being able to "climb any hill and still keep up with traffic in its 40 MPH Sport Mode for up to 35 miles"

    Being handmade in the U.S. and the extra tech are the likely reasons for it's high cost, but price aside, I like the concept and the look of this bike.

    CNN video review: http://www.cnn.com/videos/cnnmoney/2016/08/08/bolt-motorbike-cnnmoney.cnn

    TechCrunch review:


    More info: http://www.boltmotorbikes.com/
    #43
  4. Yossarian™

    Yossarian™ Deputy Cultural Attaché

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    $5,495??? :(
    #44
  5. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

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    Totally agree about the price, as for that kind of green, I'd consider an Ubco 2x2 or three Flydots, but understandable considering each one is handmade in SF.

    *Update: CNN has reported that the company has already pre sold the first year of M-1 inventory

    Offering less range and speed than other e-bike in its price range, the M-1 seems overpriced at first glance, but after reading more about M-1, I found its strength in being a license-free city bike that can tackle steep hills with decent range, and the option to go 40mph, making this unique commuter a worthy consideration for urbanites who want a combination of bike & motorcycle functionality.

    Here's how the Bolt M-1 compares to other sub 100v bikes:

    e-Grom ....... 72v S.L.A. 37mph 40mi range $1100
    Jetson ........ 48v Lithium 20mph 40mi range $1716
    Chameleon... 84v S.L.A. 40mph 40mi range $1849
    Daymak EM1.. 72v Lithium 20mph 43mi range $2199
    Chameleon ... 84v Lithium 40mph 75mi range $3449
    Evoke S ....... 72v Lithium 56mph 70mi range $4999
    Bolt M-1 .... 72v Lithium 40mph 50mi range $5495
    Evoke S ...... 100v Lithium 74mph 93mi range $6499
    Enertia Plus .. 88v Lithium 60mph 80mi range $10995
    ZEV M-13S ... 96v Lithium 80mph 80mi range $12490

    ^It should be noted that max range is not at max speed. Typically ~1/2 the max speed is required to achieve max range ratings. Example. an stock SLA e-Grom has a max speed of 37mph but will only go about 15-20 miles on a single charge, (depending on rider weight, terrain, stops/starts, elevation changes, temperature, etc.) but can go up to 40 miles on a charge if traveling at around 20mph. Energy is used at a faster disproportional rate the faster you go (Peukert's Law), plus factor in wind resistance, etc.

    If I had to personal choose 3 from the above for range, speed, and value, they would be:
    e-Grom, Evoke S 72v, & Evoke S 100v
    #45
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  6. EvrythingAwesom

    EvrythingAwesom Long timer

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    Wow, a very complete mini Buyer's Guide to Electric Scooters!

    This lineup of electric motorbikes is very, very useful information. Your list is complete, and lists the ebikes that can be purchased today, unlike the Clean Rider website's. The Clean Rider's site features a lot of electric 'cycles that we'll never seen on the roads, too.

    Brillant, thank you!

    As stated in the e-Grom threads, the body (shell) is sold under many names/brands, with 1500, 2000, or 3000 hub motors wattages, and voltage options (and top-speeds), right from the dealer(s).

    Here's my 2-cents addition to this "electric scooter buyer's guide" - Buy the one that has spare parts, a proven service guy that knows how to fix problems, and good reviews for warranty work because the dealer(s) who rip off their customers will be out of business sooner or later.


    * Some of these e-Grom's have bicycle pedals, i.e. a moped, which has some advantages.

    Here's an optional controller that claims to boost performance:
    https://ebikeuniverse.net/blog/daymak-drive-turbo-controller-boosts-your-ebike/


    Was parked near a Zero SR recently. It is taller than an eGrom but the SR's front tire is thinner.

    Also watched Zero DSR, FX, and SR owners' reviews on YouTube. Some said that their Zero's range was as little as 40 miles (probably without the optional batteries) and the Zero electric motorcycles (probably bare-bones) takes 8 hours to charge.

    The e-Grom (aka Boom!, Gromlin, etc) with the new-waveform controllers and QS hub motors are so efficient that even the lowly SLA battery is usable enough.

    The Made In China electric scooters come with a motion-sensing alarm, remote keyfob, as standard equipment.

    For the Bolt M1, to prevent theft, a "paging" device would be good to have. A $15 luggage, or pet "perimeter alarm" has up to a 75 foot range, per my tests.


    My leased LIFEPO4 Egrom has approximately 2000 kms on the odometer, and I've noticed that going non-WOT (pulse-and-glide) adds quite a few extra miles range.
    #46
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  7. jon_l

    jon_l Long timer

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    #47
  8. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

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    jon_l, Thank you for bringing it to my attention :beer

    Edit: in the post below, Evrything reminded me why 40mph was posted. I had forgotten that you can program the controller via smartphone for up to 40mph if your state, province, country allows.
    #48
  9. EvrythingAwesom

    EvrythingAwesom Long timer

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    Look up the asterisk on the 3 different models.

    The fine print states that the top speed is programmable, by a smartphone(?), depending on the jurisdiction, i.e. the state or province.

    It states near the bottom:
    *speed can be set higher depending on provincial/state laws


    The page has an Indegogo link.. to the 40MPH "version"

    https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/chameleon-turbo-40-mph-ebike-take-the-streets#/


    Hey, thanks voltsxamps, for bringing this to our attention. The "Chameleon" electric scooter YouTube video, off the Indeogogo page, is definitely exciting, showing a wheelie, a jump, and shooting up a steep goat track. Perhaps someone can track down an owner review, but this is definitely looking like an awesome electric scooter:





    OOPSIE! Here is the link to buyers' comments ... VERY BAD

    https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/chameleon-turbo-40-mph-ebike-take-the-streets#/comments
    #49
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  10. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

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    Thank you Evrything for reminding me why I posted 40mph max speed for the Chameleon.

    I'll log in to indigogo later to read the Chameleon buyer comments (cannot be viewed otherwise).
    #50
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  11. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

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    That's not too bad actually. @.12/kW, let's say it would cost around an avg of $1.00 a day to recharge batteries for nice round numbers. If one were to ride 28 days/month, a buck a day is reasonable having the convenience of a network of swappable batteries, stationed throughout the city/county/state is a pretty fair deal. And compared to gas, 28 bucks is much less than filling up with dino juice each month. Later down the road, if Gogoro would add a decent looking motorcycle to join their scooter, they could tap into a wider market.

    Ideally, if rechargeable EV batteries can be standardized, much like AA, AAA, C, D, 9V, etc, then the market will make products to fit the batteries.. in essence, if gogoro takes off in a big way, it's plausible that one day other manufacturers (Honda, Suzuki, Yahama, etc) would simply make their bikes to accept gogoro batteries. That's a big if, though, but sometimes others like gogoro have to pave the way or demonstrate what's possible before lasting change can happen. Or, it will be, as Thomas Edison once put it, just one of 10,000 ways how not to do something.
    #51
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  12. EvrythingAwesom

    EvrythingAwesom Long timer

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    My Taiwanese friends who had family that owned electric scooters e.g. EVT's said that there weren't enough power outlets. EVT got $40M in grants or subsidies a long time ago, but failed due. Today, the 2008 and 2016 hub motor and controller breakthroughs make every electric scooter/motorcyle made prior to 2016 completely obsolete. We don't need those problematic Lithium batteries on our eGroms, unless you need 10X faster charging, less weight, etc.


    In Chinese cities, there are indoor "escooter parking lots" (see YouTube) with outlets and a live-in attendant. Iirc, the cost was cheap.

    Remember that SLA batteries should not be allowed to go below 12.1V.

    Battery chargers go "out of spec" eventually, which is the biggest killer of batteries, in my experience, causing the SLA's to balloon, if they don't have the VRLA valves, i.e. made cheaply.

    Gogoro says they sold 10K escooters. Gogoro has announced it will rent escooters in Berlin, Germany, partnering with Bosch. Great move by Gogoro! Electric bike and e-scooter rentals are boom-ing in many cities, subsidized by the city councils usually.

    I agree that the Gogoro $1/day battery rental is affordable. The hurdle is the Gogoro's $5K selling price. Hence, the rental in Berlin would be a good move, if the daily rates are reasonable.

    The big thorn in Gogoro's side is NIU, which launched the same time as Gogoro, and sold 50K units at less than $1,000 each, with comparable specs to the "Berlin" Gogoro. NiU has Bosch electric motors, apparently, and very good chassis and reviews. The NIU has removable, easy to carry, battery packs.

    The Gogoro is seen speeding up to 95KPH for 45 minutes on YouTube. It's wheels are small and seem skinny. The Gogoro has an un-enclosed belt-drive, which will wear out, and wear out faster when wet. My opinion, from owning and reviewing many escooters, suggests that the front wheel should be fatter and bigger than Gogoro's existing wheel. Imo, the eGrom's wide 12" tires are perfect.

    Incidentally, most low-speed China e-scooters have pogo-stick, non-dampened suspensions. My eGrom has seemingly good dampening and rides softer after 800 kms. My motorcycle mechanic, a gifted bike fixer, lowered my eGrom's tire pressures to 27PSI from 40PSI. My 2015 eGrom's ride was somewhat harsh at 40PSI. Seen different rear shocks on the 2016's, some with full-length springs and even adjustable shocks.

    Note: I would not buy any scooter that didn't have a built-in motion-sensing alarm. But, what happens when you remove the battery?
    #52
  13. EvrythingAwesom

    EvrythingAwesom Long timer

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    The Elasticity of Demand for electric scooters from $600 to $6000 can be deduced, mentally, from BMW's 500-units sold annually in France (in CleanRider?) vs NIU, Gogoro, vs China's 40 million annual production. Sales of the other Euro and Zero's are negligible based on the France annual sales.
    #53
  14. EvrythingAwesom

    EvrythingAwesom Long timer

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    #54
  15. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

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    Removable batteries you can swap and carry is a nice feature and something I'd want on my next electric if offered.

    I agree that the width of the e-Grom/Grom's tires are just right for paved or unpaved roads as well as cornering grip, though I'm opting for a compound that has better wet cornering grip. I've never dropped my bike, but the strong torque can easily break the rear tire loose on wet smooth pavement like the kind found on painted walkways at shopping malls. Thankfully it's really only there where I encounter these slippery suckers!

    Because my Evoke didn't come with an alarm, I invested in a motion sensing brake disc lock with a 125dB keyed alarm. I park virtually anywhere with confidence that my bike won't be moved. If I know I'm going to park in a high risk area, I'll supplement the disk brake lock with a Kryptonite Ulock around the front fork to a pole, a rack, etc. and for added security, the breaker can be flipped to off. Mine has been repositioned under my locked seat, making it that much harder to get to. On top of that, I've got a rechargeable GPS tracker with geo fencing to alert me on my iPhone when the bike has left the area. I can continue to track the bike for up to 6 days, depending on battery life. It may be overkill for most places I park, but if in a sketchy area, I'm glad it's there if I need it.

    edit: I came across these today: http://studylifestyle.com/2016/trackr/3/? cid=12&utm_term=cbsinteractive-cbsnews&sxid=8zcobxlairdb called TrackR

    [​IMG]

    Might be worth checking out as according to what I read, they are low lost and doesn't require a monthly subscription. https://www.thetrackr.com
    #55
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  16. EvrythingAwesom

    EvrythingAwesom Long timer

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    You're smart to prevent problems, by investing in security!

    Good role model!
    #56
  17. aeromys

    aeromys n00b

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    [​IMG]

    Not really electric scooters, more just ebikes, but those watching the Rio Olympics will notice that the traditional petrol powered derny in the cycling keirin events is now electric. Supplied by http://www.elmoto.com/en/
    #57
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  18. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

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    Ready for some ridiculousness?

    [​IMG]
    This website is selling.. quote.. the "Worlds Fastest Supercharged 10000W Racing Electric Scooter! with the caption.. Not for the Faint Hearted , For the Speed Freaks.

    [​IMG]
    Let's see.. looking at the specs.. 74 fricken miles per hour.. on a stand up scooter.. :yikes and do that on donut wheels and no suspension that I can see. :p3rryIf these specs are true, this guy is not wearing nearly enough gear.:kurt

    Specs from their website: http://www.e-scooters.co.uk/supercharged-10000w-racing-electric-scooter-468-p.asp

    Power 10000W
    Battery 84V35AH
    Speed : 120km/h (74.5mph)
    Distance : 100KM plus
    Acceleration : 0-83km/h 4.3S

    Model: Supercharged Wild Scooter
    Foldable: Yes
    Frame : High Carbon Steel
    Weight: 60KG
    Load Weight: 180KG
    Tyre's: All terrain
    Tyre Size: 13inch x 5.8inch
    Charger: UK/EU/USA
    Brakes: F Disc Brake/ R EABS Brake (adjustable)
    Drive Mode : Throttle
    Console: Key Lock Start

    Price: 3500 British Pounds or $4573 USD give or take.

    Let's think about that advertised acceleration for a second. 0-50mph in less than 4.3 seconds!? That's the same acceleration as a Tesla Model S 60: -
    I've been in a Tesla Model S at max acceleration, and let me tell you, unless I see a video of someone matching that on this scooter, I'm calling shenanigans, but if it's for real, then that's one hell of a scary ride! :grim Hey, I'm not saying I won't ride the thing. I'll be geared up head to toe though, have my will in order, and my medical ID with me because when I do, looking at the numbers, it's plausible that this might do what they say it will. A big might. A Tesla has all wheel drive on fat rubber, where the tires on this scooter have the contact patch of an grapefruit. Either this scoot's got some crazy physic defying tech or someone got overzealous with the figures. In either case, I still want to ride it!
    #58
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  19. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

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    From the same folks that sell the 10000w scooter above also have a moderately priced e-moto for £3000 / $3947 USD (current conversion rate) called the GT 3000.

    Interestingly it has the same 72v 20Ah rated SLA's as the $1200 e-Grom, but claims a 80kph speed and a range of 100km. I know that SLA's are quite capable of high rates of discharge, and when coupled to an 80A controller (and running on larger 17/16" wheels), you may very well get up to 80kph/49mph using just 72v, but personally I'd have to see it to believe it myself.

    [​IMG]
    GT 3000

    My educated guess (if specs are real world accurate) that the 80A controller (double the e-Grom's 40A), allows amperage to being drawn at a very high rate and the higher rated 3000w motor can take the heat, literally, so I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt here.

    From experience, using the same 20Ah rated SLA's with a 40A controller required me to up the voltage to get to the same 49 mph speeds (volts x amps = watts), so it makes sense that with twice the amperage allowed, the same electrical power could be created with half the voltage.

    As far as the claim of 100km range goes though, I have to call them out on this one. From my 6 months experience riding an EM, I've concluded that (with my combined bike/rider weight over avg. terrain/flat elevation) 20Ah is good for a max of ~20 miles at 40mph, best case scenario, so my fuzzy math tells me that to get 100km from 20Ah's, you'll need a small sub-80lb rider with no stops, fully tucked, going <15mph. Not typically how we ride or weigh in the real world. (I'm fortunate to weigh a little less than the avg. male at 140lbs, and am moderately tucked when I ride, so I have found I get slightly better range and speed compared to most other riders)

    So aside from the larger wheels and different fairing, I'll compare the GT 3000 with an e-Grom upgraded with the 13" "Type R" 5000w hub/controller kit, said to be good for up to 70mph, currently sold for $1700. Add that to the $1100 base e-Grom and you've got a $2800 bike that out performs the GT 3000 on speed, but unfortunately, there are no details on the controller, so no other evaluations can be made between the two bikes.

    Last thing that I have to painfully point out is the inconsistency of the GT 3000's website. It's showing both 60v and 72v on the same page as well as 80kph and 95kph for speed. Despite being a good looking bike with a moderate price, it's discrepancies like these that make me feel less sure about the actual specs of this bike, and even when giving the GT 3000 the benefit of the doubt, accepting the highest specs (72v & 95kph), it still falls shy of the performance that can be achieved with a Type R e-Grom upgrade that costs less. More than a grand less. For this reason along with the website's discrepancies, I cannot recommend the GT 3000 as a good buy.

    The same site also has 4 other variations of e-motos, one of which looks like Evrything's bike, but with a different battery configuration and an interesting "3-gear speed change" :confused Similar specs to the e-Grom we know, but with website states 18 mosfets instead of 24 on the controller and several published motor ratings from 1500-3000. Why 3 different ratings?

    [​IMG]
    Street Riders M3

    There must be some serious import tariffs in the UK, because after Pound to USD conversion, you'll pay nearly twice that of an e-Grom. ($1971 USD) :eek7

    Below is the most powerful electric they have for sale:
    [​IMG]
    Street Riders JP8000

    Specs shown: 60Ah's of lithium wired for 72v capable of "100kms + at a speed of 60km/h" and capable of a top speed of 150kph/93mph - impressive for a bike retailing for £4500 / $5900 USD (at the current currency conversion rate). It appears to be a variation of a bike that is also sold by ZEV and Volt but for a much lower price point, and with better specs.

    That said, these numbers don't add up for me, giving me the feeling that the website's published figures on range and speed have been exaggerated. They also have both 6000w and 8000w published. lolwut? What's also concerning is the last two "electrics" they have showing on the bottom of the page are ICE. :fpalm
    #59
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  20. EvrythingAwesom

    EvrythingAwesom Long timer

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    Saw this scooter on YouTube, and it reminded me of my friends with Badsey electric scooters (several models) circa 1997. Had Currie scooters at the time. Other guys and girls owned some other ones in the electric scooter graveyard.

    We set up traffic cones in a warehouse and had slalom races on weekends.

    The Badseys' spec said 35MPH top speed, but was usually the last in slaloms because of their flat-profile tires.

    In real roads, the lack of suspension (like this Wild scooter) meant knee pain on potholes or speed bumps. Currie later came out with scooters with suspensions.

    Btw, the 13" front tire claim must be outside diameter, not the 12" inside diameter on our eGroms.

    Our group agreed that the Currie Phat Flyer was by far the most fun. Why? The tire profile, balance, manueverability -- probably like surfing. Very, very addictive.

    The fastest, the Badsey, was the least-liked.
    #60