Engine Oil Preferences

Discussion in 'Dakar champion (950/990)' started by kitjv, Feb 22, 2006.

  1. highlandcycles

    highlandcycles Been here awhile

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    Docking pilot, when was that letter written and when was all of this testing done? I really don't care that much but when a guy who builds race motors for one of the most successful race teams in NASCAR says that redline is better and that all of the teams are using it, I sort of believe him over some scientist in a lab. Also he has nothing to gain by telling me this so it isn't some sort of sales pitch. Like my first post said though, just change the stuff and it doesn't matter what you use. I am sure that amsoil is good, but I will stick with redline.
    #61
  2. DockingPilot

    DockingPilot Hooked Up and Hard Over

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    Hey, we have pretty good fences over this side of the pond ya know !
    :lol3
    #62
  3. DockingPilot

    DockingPilot Hooked Up and Hard Over

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    Of course, all good stuff, just stoking the fire. :thumb
    #63
  4. highlandcycles

    highlandcycles Been here awhile

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    Hey, how do you get the quote from the last guy in that cute little box?
    #64
  5. DockingPilot

    DockingPilot Hooked Up and Hard Over

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    You hit the "qoute" button on the bottom right hand cornor of his post.
    #65
  6. highlandcycles

    highlandcycles Been here awhile

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    cool thanks
    #66
  7. motogazonaktm

    motogazonaktm Adventurer

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    Found this on the Motul website under Fact sheets, i was wondering about ester technology etc.

    Bit clearer now.

    <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="517"><tbody><tr><td width="517" height="30">
    </td> </tr> <tr> <td width="517" height="30"> <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="517"> <tbody><tr> <td valign="top" width="155"> <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="125"> <tbody><tr> <td height="4">[​IMG]</td> <td height="4">[​IMG]</td> </tr> <tr> <td bgcolor="#000000" width="15" height="1">[​IMG]</td> <td bgcolor="#000000" width="110" height="1">[​IMG]</td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="top" height="20"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="15"> <tbody><tr> <td height="6">[​IMG]</td> </tr> <tr> <td>[​IMG]</td> </tr> </tbody></table> </td> <td height="35">[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hydrodynamic
    Lubrication
    [/FONT]</td> </tr> <tr> <td bgcolor="#000000" width="15" height="1">[​IMG]</td> <td bgcolor="#000000" width="110" height="1">[​IMG]</td> </tr> <tr> <td width="15" height="20">[​IMG]</td> <td width="110" height="20">[​IMG]</td> </tr> <tr> <td bgcolor="#000000" width="15" height="1">[​IMG]</td> <td bgcolor="#000000" width="110" height="1">[​IMG]</td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="top" width="15" height="20"> <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="15"> <tbody><tr> <td height="6">[​IMG]</td> </tr> <tr> <td>[​IMG]</td> </tr> </tbody></table></td> <td width="110" height="35">[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Boundary
    Lubrication
    [/FONT]</td> </tr> <tr> <td bgcolor="#000000" width="15" height="1">[​IMG]</td> <td bgcolor="#000000" width="110" height="1">[​IMG]</td> </tr> <tr> <td width="15" height="20">[​IMG]</td> <td width="110" height="20">[​IMG]</td> </tr> <tr> <td bgcolor="#000000" width="15" height="1">[​IMG]</td> <td bgcolor="#000000" width="110" height="1">[​IMG]</td> </tr> <tr> <td width="15">[​IMG]</td> <td width="110" height="20">[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ad Molecule Film[/FONT]</td> </tr> <tr> <td bgcolor="#000000" width="15" height="1">[​IMG]</td> <td bgcolor="#000000" width="110" height="1">[​IMG]</td> </tr> </tbody></table> </td> <td valign="top" width="362"> <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="362"> <tbody><tr> <td>[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]ESTER OIL[/FONT]</td> </tr> <tr> <td width="362" height="10">[​IMG]</td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="top">[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Under normal conditions, oil forms a continuous film between two surfaces. This oil film provides hydrodynamic lubrication as it prevents direct metal-to-metal contact thereby reducing friction.

    The ability to maintain a continuous layer of oil between two metal surfaces is an important attribute of an engine oil to provide fluid lubricity. Friction and wear result when this lubricant film is broken under high load conditions. This is where Esters excel in providing boundary lubrication. Ester has the propensity to reduce friction where other base oils fail.

    Ester's molecules: consist of Oxygen (O), which has a positive polarity, and Hydrogen (H), which has a negative polarity. These two molecules electrically adsorb onto the metal surfaces and form a layer known as ad molecule film. It is this ad molecule film that makes Esters stand out from other oils (where film is created by viscosity).

    The difference is obvious in its lubrication performance when starting the engine. With oils that depend on viscosity for film strength, pressure and oil will drop when the engine stops. When the engine is restarted, the film between the two metals no longer exists and this results to a dry start. Ad molecule film on the other hand, does not rely on viscosity for fluid lubrication. Therefore it is able to continuously lubricate between the two metals even if the engine stops.

    In city driving, where there are frequent start and stop, these car engines are subjected to more stress than in racing. It is therefore more critical that the appropriate engine oil is chosen to protect car engines.

    MOTUL uses Ester as base oil for its 4-stroke and 2-stroke engine oils.[/FONT]</td> </tr> </tbody></table> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> </td> </tr> <tr> <td width="517" height="15">[​IMG]</td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#fcc4c6"> <td width="517" height="1">[​IMG]</td> </tr> <tr> <td width="517" height="30">[​IMG]</td> </tr> <tr> <td> <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="517"> <tbody><tr> <td valign="top" width="155"> <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="125"> <tbody><tr> <td height="4">[​IMG]</td> <td height="4">[​IMG]</td> </tr> <tr> <td bgcolor="#000000" width="15" height="1">[​IMG]</td> <td bgcolor="#000000" width="110" height="1">[​IMG]</td> </tr> <tr> <td height="20">[​IMG]</td> <td height="20">[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Comparison Chart[/FONT]</td> </tr> <tr> <td bgcolor="#000000" width="15" height="1">[​IMG]</td> <td bgcolor="#000000" width="110" height="1">[​IMG]</td> </tr> </tbody></table> </td> <td valign="top" width="362"> <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="362"> <tbody><tr> <td>[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]ESTER AS BASE OIL FOR SYNTHETIC OIL[/FONT]</td> </tr> <tr> <td width="362" height="10">[​IMG]</td> </tr> <tr> <td>[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Before the introduction of Esters, the choice of base oils was based on its ability to control viscosity. It was thought then, that the thicker the oil the better it would be.

    By employing Esters as the base for synthetic oil, MOTUL changed the conventional concept of synthetic lubricants. Esters are polar molecules that have the ability to electro-chemically bond with metals, so as to maintain a continuous lubricant film at high or low temperatures.

    After experimenting with a variety of Esters, MOTUL selected Complex Esters in 1996 as its latest generation of base oils. Complex Esters have increased adsorption ability thereby making higher performance synthetic oils.[/FONT]</td> </tr> <tr> <td width="362" height="30">[​IMG]</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table>
    #67
  8. Jody H

    Jody H Been here awhile

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    Repsol 4T Racing 100% synthetic 15w-50
    All my street bikes love the stuff.
    #68
  9. Bill English

    Bill English ICUUCME

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    Comment on break in:
    When the engine is fresh out of the factory there are inevitably metal surfaces that have not been machined to a perfect #1 uinch polish. It's not practical. Nor has every part been machined perfectly flat, oval, circlular, etc,.. I.E., the mating of parts is never perfect in terms of factors other than surface finish, ex: Runout, etc,... Thus certain surfaces need to "break in", and it's important to allow the moving surfaces to mate but not necessarily to abrade. The physics of abrasion are certainly different than providing a "slurry" of material that polishes, kin to chemical mechanical planarization. The abrasion that happens as a matter of "seating" is necessary to remove small peaks on the contact surfaces and this allows for tighter more consistent stroke or rotation. This should happen at the widest range of rotation and frequency. Material will come loose because of a variety of mechanisms. Surfaces that are honed will polish. And hopefully, the loose material will quickly get into the filtration system. To think that it's necessary to have pieces of metal floating around during break in is not logical. Particles that manage to get in between bearing surfaces cause damage, not anything good.
    So this goes back to the synthetic versus conventional petroleum products during break in. Consider the physics of mechanical wear as stated above and then ask yourself what the consequence of using either lubricant are during break in. Synthetics tend to hold up better at high heat. It doesn't mean that one is necessarily more slippery or prevents proper break in. Furthermore, consider graphite or Teflon products.
    A couple of posts ago the guy refers to Ester based oil. The most advanced synthetics use Ester based performance. Look up class of oils 1 through 5...
    In general, synthetics are clearly more robust over longer periods of operation at higher temperatures. Having said that, the main difference between these higher performance motorcycle oils versus what you'd put in your 4-wheeled hot rod has to do with the fact most motorcycles have a clutch that uses the engine oil. Motorcycle oils tend to lack additives that increase lubricity, hence affects your clutch,... unless you have a dry sump/ run separate oil. They also tend to have higher ratio of detergents.
    If you are racing and take your engine apart all the time perhaps you should be concerned. If you are part of the mainstream biker crowd then it's more important to change regularly. If you can afford to do whatever you want,... well there's no one but you that knows the answer.:wink:
    #69
  10. Bill English

    Bill English ICUUCME

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    Correction:
    "factors including surface finish, ex: Runout, etc,..."
    #70
  11. wingysataday

    wingysataday Been here awhile

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    I was told by a friend that diesel oil is the best cause it has all the goodies in it and is great for your clutch? anyone know?
    #71
  12. XJCoupe

    XJCoupe smells gasoline burnin'

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    You want to avoid the high levels of molybdenum that are found in "Energy Conserving" automotive oils, which can cause (wet) clutch slippage. I wouldn't take that as being great for your clutch -- just not bad for it. There are, of course, other differences with oils designed for gasoline engines. There's virtually endless reading about engine oil on the Internet, but this is a decent place to start:
    http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Oils1.html
    #72
  13. pburke

    pburke Talks more than he rides

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    I've been using that Rotella T diesel stuff (semi synth) for two years now. $17 for a gallon, changed often, no problems with the clutch. If you think you have clutch problems, make sure the jet is clean and the right size (there was an upgrade to a larger size I had to install, and suddenly all my cold clutch slipping issues went away)

    The part # for the oil jet is 6003802900
    #73
  14. K2m

    K2m ....58....

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    Still running Dino 15/40. $70 per 20lt. Clutch works perfect. Change every 5,000km. Run it in my Turbo Subi as well. A bit heavy in the gearbox of my Gasgas 300 two stroke. So I run ATF in that @ about the same price. Clutches luv ATF.

    Occasionally a week before an oil change I dump 250ml(Bike) to 500ml (Car) of ATF into the engine oil to add extra detergent to the engine oil to give the engine a good clean. Works for me:D
    #74
  15. K2m

    K2m ....58....

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    I have re written that to make more sense.... sorry. You are right:D
    #75
  16. Bill English

    Bill English ICUUCME

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    Amazing stuff...
    The reason ATF works in the 2-Stroke gear-case is because it's not the engine oil. Even then, looks like at least some people mix the stuff because??
    Wow!
    Anyway, ATF allows for clutch adhesion in a transmission no wonder someone would consider it for a two-stroke sump. However, take caution,... I wouldn't think that any ATF is designed to operate continuously at high temperatures. I.E. so close to the pistons.
    Evaluate, and split the case some time and look at surfaces for burning, scoring, etc,... then get back to us.

    Maybe if there's a bike that can do it all there's lubricant that can do it all.
    Something tells me no...:freaky
    #76
  17. K2m

    K2m ....58....

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    I must say that the reason I put it into the two stroke gear box is habit. It started in 1972. I had a Yammy DT2, Some one told me that Automatic transmissions had clutches and things like a dirt bike 'Wet bath". I was running GTX at the time and had developed clutch slip.

    Gear changing is perfect you don't get clutch drag like with heaver oil.

    So we all stuck ATF in and have been doing it ever since. Thats 36 years, and I have not had one gearbox problem. That all I can say about it.

    The bike takes 800ml, I buy it in a 20Lt drum for around $70. I change it regularly.
    #77
  18. Head2Wind

    Head2Wind MotorcycleMayhem

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    Current engine oil preference: Silkolene Pro 4 SX 15W-50 (API SF & SG, JASO MA) has the "MCN Big Claims TEST approval" for what its worth... Been running it for 3 oil changes now, overall impressions are good. But then I have not done any oil anylsis either.

    Current chain lube preference: Elf Moto Chain paste- this stuff is awesome. comes in a aerosol also.
    #78
  19. ADVMax

    ADVMax Sporting Foole Supporter

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    I allowed myself to fall into this fucking "which oil for my KTM" thing for a while. KTM tries to scare the shit out of all of us with little enuendos that our watch-like engines will fling themselves into oblivion if we din't use their mother's milk Motorex. Ferkin Motorex is at LEAST 17 dollars a liter now in the U.S., considering that I still have a KLR I'm too damn cheap to pay that kind of cash for a bottle of oil. :lol3

    I know there are a bunch of people running diesel oils with great success but in all the years of high performance motorcycle, car, and boat ownership I have used only Castrol GTX. I have to say right away if clutch problems were going to be an issue I would have seen them waaaaay before I became a KTM zombie. Seriously, if I didn't have clutch issues on a few GSXRs and a Busa with some serious mods and a nitrous bottle this 950 shouldn't reveal any issues.

    I had tried in the beginning the Motorex, then switched to Mobil 1 4T, then to "regular" Mobil 1, then said, "This is madness!" So a couple of changes ago I dumped in good 'ol Castrol GTX 20/50 and that damn "Austrian Ducati" LOVES it! Right away the bike has shifted much smoother and I have stretched the ever lovin shit out of my chain and fried a rear tire looking for clutch slippage.

    One small detail that has always bothered me about synth oil is that it comes out of the engine damn near as clean as it went in. One key function of engine oil is to contain dirt and contamination which is drained out during an oil change. GTX goes in clean and comes out dirty so I know it's taking some of the fine particulate crap out of the engine.

    One key advantage of synth oil is supposed to be the fact that it can be run longer between changes. Who here runs their engine oil for 7 or 8 thousand miles before changing it? If I'm changing oil every 2500 to 3000 miles and the bike shifts better and has almost NO cam chain noise with the GTX why would I want to run some foo foo oil that costs more per liter than the GTX does per gallon? It really doesn't make sense now does it?

    OH YEAH! You can't put dino oil in an engine after it's been run on synthetic - I know a bunch of you have heard that as well. I guess at this point in the game as far as my 950 is concerned I'll have to call BS on that one too! :lol3
    #79
    nk14zp likes this.
  20. MortimerSickle

    MortimerSickle Semi-Adventurer

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    I have to agree with pretty much everything ADVMax said, though I do use motorcycle-specific oil (Valvoline) because it cured a clutch problem on another bike (the only oil related problem I have had.) For many years I used only automobile oil, for the simple reason that it was all that was available- it worked just fine.
    #80