F800GS - More Problems with mine, lets hear about yours....

Discussion in 'Parallel Universe' started by Lost Roadie, Mar 23, 2010.

  1. SoDak

    SoDak Adventurer

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    I have thought about that. It would probably take a re-map of the computer. The exhaust would be different and the stupid chip might try and "correct itself".

    Are the injectors in the F650GS different? Does Bosch make a "non-BMW" clone?

    I really love riding this bike on the forest service trails and roads. I would hate to be in BFE without cell signal and have a non-starting episode.
  2. M N B

    M N B would rather be riding

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    I have a first year in the US 2009 F800GS. We have 10% ethanol fuel here in CommieTreehuggifornia. I haven't had any injector or fuel pump issues. My bike only has 15k miles on it, though, due to a few months of time in the shop due to clutch and tranny problems. Those were resolved with a new short block, but the injectors and related systems all have 15k miles on them.

    I do not run cheap fuel except rarely. I usually fill up with either 76 or Chevron. I like Chevron because of the techron, so perhaps that helps. I can't say for sure.

    My bike would have the older injectors, so that might be part of the reason. I was told that later models had the head reengineered some to help it run better on crappy 3rd world gas. I rode one of those bikes and I found the performance was lacking in comparison to the very peppy response I get from my '09. So hopefully I won't need to run 3rd world gas...

    Anyways, I just figured I'd chime in with my experience in case it's of any help to others.
  3. rjudge

    rjudge Texan from near Muskogee

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    I was prepping the 800GS today for a weekend ride and while lubing the chain I noted roughness while rotating the rear wheel and 2-3 mm of play side to side in the wheel. Feels like the left side bearing has failed. Is that the side that usually goes? Are most dealers covering this under warranty without argument? 12K mi. Ah well, it's time for a dealer checkup anyway. Hate the 2 hr drive to the dealer though.

    Dust off the ST1300 for the weekend.

    RJ
  4. itsatdm

    itsatdm Long timer

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    This is the injector: Bosch EV14xt 0280158038 injector with a Motronic electrical connector I think it is the same as all the F800gs/ F658gs and the latest singles.

    It has a flow rate of around 255grams per minute or some such. Lower than any car source part, or at least I cannot find a donor vehicle.

    I am not aware of any physical change over the model years to accommodate bad gas except the mystery remap that was or was not installed on some NA bikes at owner request to run on regular grade gas.

    There is a Joel post on the fact that though the injectors are rated being able to take up to 16v without harm(Bosch's rating), the F800gs uses a much lower voltage to do so, to lessen the noise of them. One owner of sticky injectors could not get them to work installed, but could get them to work with direct 12v.

    Another Californian without injector problems even though a steady diet of ethanol. I had 15,000 miles on the bike before I knew I had a potential problem and started giving it a periodic dose of Techron.

    The one thing that may be different is that I ride year round so the gas does not sit for any period of time. I try to use high volume stations so I think I am getting reasonable fresh gas.
  5. JRWooden

    JRWooden Homeless motorcycle vagabond ... and ... loving it

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    Well that would stink....
    I was thinking the difference would not be so big that the computer could not "re-learn" things ...
    I have ZERO experience at this, you could well be correct.
  6. twinjet

    twinjet Been here awhile

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    You may have hit upon a major contributing cause of the "stuck injector" problem. My F658 has clogged it's injectors twice so far (before I started to use Techron). Each time it was after bringing the bike out of winter storage which around where I live in NH run from November to late April.

    I wonder any other bikes that have had injector clogging are also laid up for months at a time?
  7. Dansrc51

    Dansrc51 I need a cape....

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    yes and maybe.

    depending on the year and warranty, the dealer should replace them, at least any dealer worth their salt. A good dealer should replace them at least once as this is a known issue regardless of wear, IMHO.

    I'm pretty sure left side has been the issue. I had both of mine replaced early on... I think at 7k or something like that. almost 27k now and no signs of issues....*crosses fingers*
  8. JoelWisman

    JoelWisman Long timer

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    It may be news here, but not news at dealerships. Every spring, dealers in colder climates see a huge run on injectors. For the first month that the weather got above 50F, my old dealership would do 4 injector replacements a day or more.

    Winter lay up is very hard on these particular injectors.

    FYI, they rarely clog, but rather usually just stick. once un-stuck, the pattern and volume is usually okay, but will often stick again unless the "joel method" of cleaning is used.

    P.S. Working for a Piaggio group dealership (Aprilia, Moto Guzzi, Piaggio, and Vespa) now, there is no run on injectors and they almost never stick or plug.


    I am certain that lay up, and ethanol contaminated with water contribute to BMW's injector issue. I am also certain that absence of injector pinging on startup and the darn unprotected aluminum cased fuel pump that corrodes contribute.

    BMW is right that it "is the gas" BUT....... Rather then rightly blame the gas, Piaggio uses fuel pumps that while aluminum are coated with something or another that gives them a glossy yellowish appearance, robust Merelli injectors that don't stick, and ECU's that ping the investors with a 6khz pulse for half a second each time the key is switched on to vibrate the valve and fuel at the injector nozzle, there by cleaning both.

    Volvo has been doing the same as Piaggio since 1983. Heck, even DSLR cameras do a similar thing and "shake" the CCD each time the camera is switched on.

    The fact that the USA infrastructure (old gas stations with tanks that are vented to atmosphere and or leak) and quiescence to corn farmers creates fuel that will corrode unprotected aluminum is no excuse for constant failures when other manufactures in lower or similar price points are simply using components and technology that is not patented to deal with USA gas as is.

    I would have said this long ago, but, well, you know, I kinda worked for BMW and they do read what I post LOL. You can't bight the hand that feeds you too hard or it will stop feeding you :rofl


    So, yes it is the gas, yes BMW could easily engineer and source parts that wouldn't care, yes some german engineers need a stuck fuel injector shoved up their ass.

    My apologies for not saying this long ago.


    P.S. If a dealership is big and politically savvy enough, they should cover injectors as long as they are pretty sure they have the clout that BMW won't ask for the warranted parts to be sent back.

    BUT...... you do have to lie to BMW to get the injectors covered and that is a violation of the franchise agreement or even legally fraud though I don't see it ever going that far.

    Heres an excerpt from the last version of the BMW Warranty Policies and Procedures Manual (WPPM) I have.

    Section 5, page 9:

    "Fuel injectors are covered during the period of the new motorcycle warranty for defects in material or workmanship. Cleaning the fuel injectors is not covered under warranty. Refer to the applicable Service Information Bulletin detailing
    the current warranty coverage for testing fuel injectors for leakage."

    So, refer next to the Bulletin that I don't have, or call your FSE or the warranties department and you will be told:

    "injectors are covered for leakage or electrical failure. plugged or corroded and stuck injectors are NOT a warranty matter but instead are due to customer negligence in using improper fuel or improperly storing the bike"

    To which I replied "How in the FU***** H*** is a customer supposed to put gas in his motorcycle in the USA without possibly being negligent?" (letters after FU replaced with *s here but not in original)

    I'm pretty sure there is an UN-written rule against posting excerpts of the WPPM, hmm, oh well.

    I went around with the warranties department on this and other matters many times because having worked for both franchises and corporate, I know that the BMW motorcycle warranties department, at least in the USA is very much below par in this market to the point that dealers that give good customer service do such by deceiving the warranties department on a regular basis.

    After getting threatening replies to enquiries from the BMW motorrad warranties department a few times, I fired off an email which the subject line

    "BMW Warranties department, YOU ARE THIEVING"

    The body included how BMW Motorrad USA's policy on injectors was against the law in that it did not satisfy the mandatory minimum federal emissions warranty act as well as many other issues. I sent it straight to the warranty boss but CC'd the dealer council, Aftersales boss, Technical boss, Pipeline boss, VP Motorrad USA, CEO BMW USA, Warranty boss Germany, Risk manager Germany,

    I didn't get a SINGLE reply on from anyone in the entire CC chain for 3 weeks! Then, finally got an apology from the USA Motorrad warranties boss and a lame response about of course needing to fulfill the letter of the federally mandatory emissions warranty but no explanation of weather habitually sticky and prone to plug injectors qualify as a federal emissions defect.

    Basically I got back a 3 page reply that had no useful directives LOL but was very cautiously written.

    A week ago a friend that is on the car side asked me if I was THAT Joel Wisman that sent the infamous email titled "BMW warranties department you are THIEVING"

    Assuming said friend isn't blowing smoke, I got no replies for 3 weeks because BMW lawyered up and told everyone from the CEO down not to reply until the lawyer could draft the official reply.

    Okay, done tooting my horn, the point is.... If a dealership refuses to warranty injectors under the BMW USA warranty, ask him to cover them under the Federal emissions warranty. If they still refuse, call the number in the warranty booklet for reporting federal emissions violations.

    NHTSA has no interest in motorcycles and not very big teeth. The USA EPA can eat BMW alive and BMW knows it.
  9. cathulu

    cathulu Been here awhile

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    Thanks for that. BMW is a disappointment I must say. I have had fuelling issues that I worry will rear their head again soon, at the most inconvenient time.

    Sent from my GT-I9100M using Tapatalk 2
  10. eddyturn

    eddyturn Eternal Wannabe Supporter

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    We moved to Durango that has one station that sells real gas and that is the only place in town I am fueling up these days. I carry small containers of Techron for when I am out and about and need gas but I'm thinking I should just keep my Rotopax topped off with the good stuff and use that if I get too low. Fascinating shit here. Thanks Joel... and what is that darn avatar thing anyway?
  11. Adv Grifter

    Adv Grifter on the road o'dreams

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    Great inside info ... and lots of experienced based facts. All good Joel! :clap
    I must say ... it seems to me BMW has just made one really smart move (one I predicted they would do over a year ago) and that is to Shit-Can Herr Kunnheim. He's OUT!

    This can only be good. They've replaced him with a Motorcycle guy as CEO now. Who knows? Maybe he'll start really listening to customers ... and dealers? One can only hope! :D
  12. twinjet

    twinjet Been here awhile

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    Thanks Joel and congrats on your new position with the Piaggio Group.
    I'm reminded of what a Triumph mechanic once told me in the 70's. He was saying that when he complained that the bikes were jetted wrong for Southern California (where he worked for a Triumph dealer) he was told the Triumph sold bike to a world market and therefore couldn't provide SoCal with specially jetted bikes. The rest is history.
  13. JRWooden

    JRWooden Homeless motorcycle vagabond ... and ... loving it

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    Joel:

    You were not really surprised by this were you? :lol3
    The weenies ....
    I'm glad you were, at the very least, able to get a rise out of them!


    Is the 6Khz pulse something that could be added by a firmware upgrade?
    I don't know how they knock down the voltage to the injectors, so maybe that could not be ramped up,
    but it would seem that at the very least they could add the "cleaning/unsticking" pulse-stream at key-on time...
    Unless of course there is a patent in the way?
  14. itsatdm

    itsatdm Long timer

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    The EV14 series injectors seem to be an evolution of the EV2 series injectors, at least I have seen several comments to that effect in reference to car use.

    If the reality is, it is more a sticky issue than a clogging issue, than I wonder if finding a replacement for the injector will solve it it.

    Injectors are really simple devices. The heart of them in the electro-magnet that is responsible for opening them. If higher voltage will do that, it seems a simple fix for the manufacturer.
  15. JRWooden

    JRWooden Homeless motorcycle vagabond ... and ... loving it

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    If I understood what I think Joel was saying ... what I got out of it was that BMW chose to operate the injectors at a lower voltage than the maximum design specification in order to make them quieter....
    i.e. a "design trade-off" was made....
    If I'm not misinterpreting this, I likely would have dialed in more voltage, more noise, and more reliability :deal
    (and not run the risk of having a malfunctioning injector stuck into particular body orifice by a crazed American named Joel :lol3 )
  16. itsatdm

    itsatdm Long timer

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    You are an old time bike rider. Read the whiney threads. Whats that ticking noise? It is your F**kin injectors.

    It makes me wonder how BMW does it. ECU or a resister in the "Motronic electric plug". Read BMW specific.

    Seems easy to find out with a multimeter. If simply a resister in a plug there must be other connectors out there.
  17. JRWooden

    JRWooden Homeless motorcycle vagabond ... and ... loving it

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    I hadn't though of that ...
    That would be really sweet... reducing or eliminating the resistor would likely change the injection profile a bit, but hopefully not so much that the ECU could not "learn" the new curve.
    Looking at the (very simplistic) schematic in the Haynes manual it does not show any resistor ... but that doesn't mean there isn't one..........
  18. JoelWisman

    JoelWisman Long timer

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    Good thinking, and FYI a resistor is how volvo did it for many years (it was 4 resistors next to the air filter on the forward right side of engine compartment)

    Alas with BMW the voltage feeding the injectors is reduced inside the brain box :(

    And YES, had BMW not reduced the voltage, there would be multiple threads complaining about the ticking noise and service writers inundated with complaints our shops don't know how to adjust valves lol.


    So yes I am also disappointed BMW didn't use a more robust fuel system, and its not just the injectors but also and largely that darn uncoated aluminum fuel pump that is the primary culprit, but.....


    Some perspective.......

    Through 40,000 miles on an early 09 F* and a late 11 F8, I never once had any issues with my injectors.


    I ride year round. I have not disabled my evaporative emissions system and particularly have not removed the canister. I used Chevron Techrom concentrate, 1 oz per gallon every 5 to 10 tanks. If the bike is going to sit for more then a week, I fill the tank. I used a good battery so injector voltage is not further reduced by low battery voltage while starting.


    I'm not sure which of those things was most important, but I don't know of anyone that rides year round, uses a good battery (IE not a ytx14) and uses techron occasionally that ever had an injector problem so I'm guessing those are the most important things.

    It is annoying that BMW needs these things while none of the Japanese or Piaggio group bikes do, but its not insurmountable.
  19. M N B

    M N B would rather be riding

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    And that incarnation of Triumph went out of business shortly thereafter...
  20. Zojirushi

    Zojirushi Surly Sailor

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    Ok, folks, I need some assistance in identifying a problem with my 2009 F800GS. After about an hour of riding, it randomly loses throttle input. I can be cruising along in any gear and at any speed, and my tach will drop down to idle while my throttle will do nothing. I can try to rev it over and over, change gears, but nothing happens until I slow down enough for the bike to stall out. It will idle for as long as I let her coast if it happens while going fast. At that point, it will either start again immediately or after a minute or two of resting. No key removal or turning required. If I add fuel, the problem will stop, but if I do not, it will get progressively worse until she is doing this every block (this along with the time involved before the problem arises makes me think it is a fuel temp problem).

    She only started doing this on this trip up to Colorado from Houston. She has 7,000 miles on her, and I ride her year round. Always use Techron if it's available; otherwise, I add fuel treatment. Unfortunately, I don't have my tools or a garage out here. The BMW/Harley shop in Grand Junction was useless except for letting me know there were no codes. I've read a few posts on trouble shooting fuel issues, but nothing with this exact pattern. It seems strange that I lose power but she continues to idle (makes me think it's not a fuel pump problem, but an ECU problem?) Thanks.