FactoryPro Jet Kit...cure for what ails your carbs!

Discussion in 'KTM 950/990' started by Gixxer2go, May 16, 2005.

  1. wsmc99

    wsmc99 Been here awhile

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    Jan 9, 2004
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    564
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    Could you expand upon the drive-ability issue? Where, what and what conditions?
    Do you think going 2.5 on the clip in the FP setup would have resolved the drive-ability issue? Why such a small pilot (#38)?

    My freind did stock everything with the needles at 2.5 and desribed drive-ability issues as well, when he went to #3 on the clip he felt it cured it.

    Thanks.
    #61
  2. gbranham

    gbranham Kool-aid Drinking Infidel KVNY Los Angeles

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    Does anybody know how to make the on/off throttle response smoother? My bike feels like it has an early fuel injection set up. When I roll on the gas it will transition from closed throttle to open with a small but annoying jerk that upsets the front suspension. It happens when I'm rolling off the throttle also. This is not fun when leaned way over in a turn. I've checked the butterfly screws and they are tight. I haven't checked carb sync but it idles smoothly. This wasn't a problem when the bike was new. '04 with 7700 miles, all emission equip. removed, needles @ 3rd pos., Wings cans....Thanks for any help, Gary
    #62
  3. KTMax

    KTMax Ninth of the Nazgul

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    I made a typo in my previous post. The needle position is 3.5 and not 2.5. This only works with the centre section between the tanks ('glovebox') lifted at the front. The rest is the old routine. Sommer airbox cover, stock jetting, Idle CO at 4.2%. Without question still by far the best allround performance and rideability. Not the snatchy & jerky throttle response you'll get with Factory needles, often confused with 'better performance'. A cheap & easy trick.

    No surging, no haunting, no stumbles, no 'sudden death' (whatever the f.ck that may be...) and no snatchy throttle. When both the fuel mixture and slide speed are right throughout the rev range, it is right. There's nothing more or better after that. No rocket science, no magic tricks. Boring isn't it?... :D
    #63
  4. RedFlash

    RedFlash Go Cubs!

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    I am in the middle of this mess right now and stopped to take some photos of the needles.

    The top needle is the FP offering. Note the shorter overall length of the FP but longer reach from the same clip position. Measuring the first few millimeters of the tip show little taper. Once the taper starts, the two needles have about the same slope. Also note the tip of the stock needle; it is more pointed and sharp than the FP needle, which is blunt and a bit dull. Not sure what this means, it just caught my eye.

    [​IMG]

    The next two show the detail of the clip area. The first has the FP needle on top. I wasn't sure if my photo was exaggerating the difference, so I lit it differently for the second shot...

    [​IMG]

    ... and it is obvious that the slots machined in the stock needle (right) for the clip, are tighter and cleaner than the FP version. Since the needle is completely held in position by the clip, any play in the slot will allow the needle to move up and down slightly within the slide, potentially varying the mixture.

    [​IMG]

    Whether it is enough to cause noticeable performance issues is debatable. Probably not, but it may be worth investigating.
    #64
  5. wsmc99

    wsmc99 Been here awhile

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    Let me know how this combo comes out, it's what I was thinking of going to! You're in Silicon Valley, no?
    #65
  6. wsmc99

    wsmc99 Been here awhile

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    So what does that entail, shimming the attachment screws?
    2.5 needles without the center being lifted. Had a buddy try that here and says that it didn't have the pull that #3 did.

    Oh and just to confirm: your stock mains are 155/160?
    #66
  7. RedFlash

    RedFlash Go Cubs!

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    Well, here is where I am set up:

    Mains: 160/165.
    Needle: Stock, on third clip position.
    Pilot: 45.
    Idle: 2.25 turns out.

    This is better than the FP needle setup (second clip position) and the much larger mains. With the carbs synchronized, I have less handlebar buzz at 5500 RPM but it is still there, nonetheless :(: . All in all, the bike pulls hard through the throttle motion, and especially hard at WOT. I think KTMax has the right dope on these carburetors :thumb.

    I will pop the carbs out again at 4500 miles (1000 to go) when I do the oil change. The next step is to go to the stock mains, and I may go back to the 42 pilot.

    Oh, and ...
    ... Nope, North Suburban Chicago :grinner
    #67
  8. K2m

    K2m ....58....

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    Sorry it has taken so long to answer you...... I have been busy testing different setups and as you know it takes so long to get in and out of this air box.

    Long story short..... My background is in programing injected turbo engines using Haltech management systems. I went chasing perfect A/F ratios for the LC8.
    eg. In Australia during warm up ULP has a particular smell.... an aroma.... #38 gave me this. Light throttle cruse ratios of 16-17 to 1 return good economy #38 gave me 15-16 to 1. (modern cars cruse at around 14.7 to as required for the catalyst. My car runs 18 to 1. I have gotten 800+ km for 60lt, 2lt turbo Subaru).
    The drive ability problem comes from not having throttle pump control. ie with the Haltech i can program enrichment in 3 areas..... of idle, under 3000 rpm and above. You can set the amount, and the decay rate @ rpm increase. With out this control on such lean mixtures the bike is hard to ride.

    So I went to the bookcase to grab my copy of "Four stroke performance tuning" by A. Graham Bell.... yes his first name is Alex :D. There is 70 pages on tuning carburetors.
    #68
  9. Pantah

    Pantah Jiggy Dog Fan from Scottsdale Supporter

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    Ok so your post sounded like you know something about motors. Why does the KTM 942 run so poorly from a carburation perspective? I mean even my wife (who doesn't ride) would know the motor doesn't run right. The thing gets very poor gas mileage to boot, which suggests there is something wrong with it. I mean the best anybody here has ever posted is around 45mpg. A beater H-D 1200 gets over 50mpg. A ducati 916-motored ST4 gets 55mpg. That suggests those motors are more efficient and better running.

    But the main thing is the KTM has a very unsteady idle, and that probably runs thru the entire rev range. The thing flloods in hot weather. The tanks do something to the cannister. The motor ....yada yada yada. Why is this? It's 2005, not 1956!

    -p
    #69
  10. K2m

    K2m ....58....

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    REDFLASH94..... to compare needles use your vernier caliper to determine where the slope begins and ends and mark them with a texta..... measure the top OD and the bottom OD ..... put them together with the texta marks lined up and photograph and give us the measurements....... then you are comparing needles......


    KTMAX..... Please tell us what cans you run..... and thanks for sharing your settings with us:thumb

    I have dropped down one level on the mains to 155-160 and raised the FP needle to #4 with brilliant A/F ratio results:beer I will leave these as they are. #4 on the FP is the equivalent of #3.5 on the Stock (I went to raise my needles from #2 to #3clip and discovered that they were on #3 already sorry WSMC99)

    But still have issues with the pilot jet currently #42@ .5 turn out. I have a good collection of pilots #38 #40 #42 #45......

    With these settings the hit in the mid range feels like it wants to brake the chain, and at WOT the front feels very lite the A/F is 12-13 all the way with 14-15 cruse. I run the 17T front sprocket and have run the 16T.
    #70
  11. RedFlash

    RedFlash Go Cubs!

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    K2m requested:
    Will this help? :deal
    ______________________________________________________

    <TABLE style="WIDTH: 217pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=289 border=0 x:str><COLGROUP><COL style="WIDTH: 121pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 5888" width=161><COL style="WIDTH: 48pt" span=2 width=64><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 121pt; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" width=161 height=17></TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" width=64>Standard</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" width=64>FactoryPro</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" height=17>Overall Length</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num>2.75</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="2.6869999999999998">2.687</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" height=17></TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8"></TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8"></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" height=17>Straight Section D</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="9.8000000000000004E-2">0.098</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="0.997">0.097</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" height=17></TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8"></TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8"></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" height=17>Straight Section L</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="1.0209999999999999">1.021</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="1.0309999999999999">1.031</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" height=17></TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8"></TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8"></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" height=17>First Clip to bottom</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="2.5609999999999999">2.561</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="2.629">2.629</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" height=17></TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8"></TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8"></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" height=17>Tip D</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="3.9E-2">0.039</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="3.9E-2">0.039</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" height=17></TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8"></TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8"></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right height=17 x:num>0.2</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="3.9E-2">0.039</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="3.9E-2">0.039</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right height=17 x:num>0.3</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="4.2999999999999997E-2">0.043</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="3.9E-2">0.039</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right height=17 x:num>0.4</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="4.8000000000000001E-2">0.048</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="4.3999999999999997E-2">0.044</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right height=17 x:num>0.5</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="5.3999999999999999E-2">0.054</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="5.0999999999999997E-2">0.051</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right height=17 x:num>0.6</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="6.2E-2">0.062</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="5.7000000000000002E-2">0.057</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right height=17 x:num>0.7</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="6.7000000000000004E-2">0.067</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="6.4000000000000001E-2">0.064</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right height=17 x:num>0.8</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="7.3999999999999996E-2">0.074</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="7.1999999999999995E-2">0.072</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right height=17 x:num>0.9</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="7.8E-2">0.078</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="7.8E-2">0.078</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right height=17 x:num>1</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="8.4000000000000005E-2">0.084</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="8.4000000000000005E-2">0.084</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right height=17 x:num>1.1</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="8.6999999999999994E-2">0.087</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="8.6999999999999994E-2">0.087</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right height=17 x:num>1.2</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="9.0999999999999998E-2">0.091</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="9.0999999999999998E-2">0.091</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right height=17 x:num>1.3</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="9.2999999999999999E-2">0.093</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="9.1999999999999998E-2">0.092</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right height=17 x:num>1.4</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="9.5000000000000001E-2">0.095</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="9.5000000000000001E-2">0.095</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right height=17 x:num>1.5</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="9.7000000000000003E-2">0.097</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="9.7000000000000003E-2">0.097</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right height=17 x:num>1.6</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="9.9000000000000005E-2">0.099</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="9.9000000000000005E-2">0.099</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right height=17 x:num>1.7</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="9.9000000000000005E-2">0.099</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="9.9000000000000005E-2">0.099</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right height=17 x:num>1.8</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="9.9000000000000005E-2">0.099</TD><TD style="BORDER-LEFT-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-BOTTOM-COLOR: #ece9d8; BORDER-TOP-COLOR: #ece9d8; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; BORDER-RIGHT-COLOR: #ece9d8" align=right x:num="9.9000000000000005E-2">0.099</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

    These are approximate values but the curves look fairly linear on the Excel plot, which I seem to be unable to paste here :baldy . The bottom section of the table shows the diameter vs. position from the tip. The overall length and actual position in the jet, I'll leave to your math skills :nod .
    #71
  12. wsmc99

    wsmc99 Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2004
    Oddometer:
    564
    Location:
    SD, CA.
    It sounds like you are getting very close to the "perfect" set-up!
    The mid-range sounds great and the top end too. I've felt the mid-range pull even with my FP not dialed, it truly is the most fun!
    Thank you for sharing this info!!! I guess I better order a few smaller pilots and get ready to take some body panels off! :evil
    #72
  13. K2m

    K2m ....58....

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2005
    Oddometer:
    2,238
    Location:
    Sydney Australia
    REDFLASH

    Your work is fantastic ...... but there is one more parameter needed... or I have missed it....... The E clip position.....say 3rd from the top and measure down comparing both.... also it's the relationship with the #1 and #5 positions.

    PANTAH

    The short answer would be ... this is what happens when you take a racing bike and offer it for sale in the market place with regard to pollution requirements.

    If you got rid of the crap.....used Mioni's needle, Knobbys ect. and rode it in the desert like you were racing it would feel fine.....

    Sommer has done a good job of tuning KTMAX's..... so it can be done. We in the Antipodes and the US do not have access to Sommer so we have to work it out for ourselves. Factory's web has a good page for tuning CV carbs. A Wideband helps heaps. I think that I am close to being spot on..... Just a few more tests to get the pilot right......
    #73
  14. RedFlash

    RedFlash Go Cubs!

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2005
    Oddometer:
    2,440
    Location:
    Home of the Chicago Cubs!
    If you look at my post with the picture of needle details, the values would not be consistent between the two needles. As I stated, the machined grooves of the FP needle are wider and less consistent. However, I will measure these when I have time and the carburetors are apart next time.


    Just to clarify, I did include the measurment from the first clip position to the needle tip :deal .
    :D
    #74
  15. K2m

    K2m ....58....

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2005
    Oddometer:
    2,238
    Location:
    Sydney Australia
    KTMax runs Akras......

    http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1518971#post1518971

    Also he A/F ratios of 12 at WOT by running stock main jets 155 & 160

    http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1432610#post1432610

    I run a modified stock exhaust and I am getting 12s with the stock jets 155 & 160.
    [​IMG][/img]

    So what works for us should work for you.

    which leaves me to make this assertion......

    The placement of the needle clip in the wrong position means that you must compensate for mid range leanness by using larger main jets ie..... FP #2 = 170 > 180 ..... FP #3 = 160 >170......

    The problem with this is that you get WOT A/F ratios of (#2) 10s & (#3) 11s
    Which kills HP......

    All this I learnt the hard way

    To be continued...
    #75
  16. K2m

    K2m ....58....

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2005
    Oddometer:
    2,238
    Location:
    Sydney Australia
    Thank you Red flash your "less consistent" comment. That has made me look closer at the FP needle.....

    [​IMG][/img]
    My clip is on the #4, and it is such a short step to the #5...... I wonder if by putting the clip on the #5, I may go back to the #38 pilot which improve cruse A/F considerably...... mmmmm

    Excellent manometer that you made:thumb
    #76
  17. Katoum

    Katoum Adventurer

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2004
    Oddometer:
    760
    Location:
    British Columbia, Canada
    I was wondering if you have tried the FP needles in the #4 position with #165-168 mains on #45 pilot with the fuel screws at what ever produces the best idle.
    I have been running FP's on #3 with #170-175 mains and #42 pilot at 1 3/4 turns on screw with good results but seat of pants tells me I'm still a little rich. This motor seems to prefer rich in my experience as oppossed to optimum mixture. My friend who is running the FP in #4 as above has had very good results from a power perspective, but its hard to compare bike to bike as he has the inserts removed in the Akro's and is up 2 teeth on rear and 16 on the counter shaft. His bike pulls much harder on the rev limiter than mine but that could be gearing/exhaust setup more than jetting.
    #77
  18. K2m

    K2m ....58....

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2005
    Oddometer:
    2,238
    Location:
    Sydney Australia
    KATOUM

    KTMAX runs akras.... When Sommer tuned his bike they used a dyno with an exhaust analyzer and they get an A/F in the 12s at WOT with the 155 &160

    I have the stock baffles in mine with the exit pipe at 2inches....50mm, and I am getting the same results at WOT with stock jets.

    Once you rev above 65>7000 your needles position has no effect. Its pure main jet A/F ratio

    Testing has shown that the best power is produced at 12>13 : 1 in any engine. Turbos will go 11s to avoid detonation.

    The pilot puts fuel into the engine all the time. So my next move is to reduce the pilot to #38 and to compensate by lifting the needle to #5. This in the hope of finding a leaner cruse for better mileage.

    My bike is running so well now that if I got my Co adjusted on the #42 pilots I could leave it alone.

    I plan to try the #45s later in the week with clip #4 and turn out of .3>.4 turn.

    "My friend who is running the FP in #4 as above has had very good results from a power perspective, but its hard to compare bike to bike as he has the inserts removed in the Akro's"

    Thanks for that.... someone else is using clip #4 and commenting on this power hit in the mid range. The first time I experienced it I was in peak hour traffic and had to change my undies......

    KTMAX's exhaust and mine could not be more different, and we use the same main jets!
    #78
  19. KTMax

    KTMax Ninth of the Nazgul

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2003
    Oddometer:
    1,099
    Location:
    Amsterdam, The Netherlands
    That's not true K2m. The throttle position (the vacuum-slide position to be precise) is the decisive factor for the needle position. Not the revs.

    Only at WOT and after the vacuum slides have openen fully, the main jets, needle tips (diameter & shape) and the pilot jets determine the mixture. Of these 3 variables the main jets are obiviously the most important.

    Ideally the A/F graph should slope gently from 14:1 from off-idle to 12:1 at the redline. A richer 14:1 mixture gives the best throttle response and low- & midrange torque while a leaner 12:1 mixture gives the best top-end power.
    .
    #79
  20. erkmania

    erkmania I'll take better everytime

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2004
    Oddometer:
    2,097
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    "...Ideally the A/F graph should slope gently from 14:1 from off-idle to 12:1 at the redline. A richer 14:1 mixture gives the best throttle response and low- & midrange torque while a leaner 12:1 mixture gives the best top-end power."

    Me thinks you mis-typed. Should be a "...leaner 14:1 mixture..." and "...richer 12:1 mixture..."

    My dyslexia spotted your mis-type.:D
    #80