Fantasy mini-ADV twin.....

Discussion in 'Moto Bellissima: All Other Dualsports' started by John Ashman, Nov 12, 2014.

  1. John Ashman

    John Ashman Adventurer Wannabe

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    This is probably a bit silly, but running into more and more people than ever who really want a smaller, lighter twin cylinder ADV/DP bike rather than 800cc, 450lb and up models or large thumpers. So I'm thinking maybe if we toss out our ideas and make a thread, maybe someone, somewhere, at one of these companies, will see it and take some of the ideas and run with it.

    Here is mine, which I've brought up a few times -

    A 530cc twin version of the 800cc Tiger, in 3-4 mostly parts swappable variants, all under 400lbs wet, some hopefully as light as 350lbs wet.

    1. Tiger 530 Trail XC-R which would be a cross between the 800XC and a rally bike. Fully luggage capable, but mainly focused on off road with ~8-9" of travel (more?). 21" front wheel. ~34-35" seat height max. Focus on light weight, closer to 350lbs. Lighter subframe, less luggage capacity.

    2. Tiger Trail 530 XC a shorter version, more of a cross between a scrambler and an ADV tourer. Lighter, simpler, and shorter for ease of riding with a 32" or lower seat. Like a Ducati Scrambler, but higher tech and with a 19" front and spoke wheels for light off road, light ADV touring.

    3. Tiger Cub XR, a cross between a commuter and sport ADV tourer, with luggage capability, street rims, light, small fairing.

    4. Speed Twin (real Triumph bike from the past), which would most obviously be a naked twin like the Speed Triple.

    But, mainly, I really want a bike that has the ability to hit 75mph minimum without shaking itself and me to pieces, but is still light enough to hit the trails hard and also, I really want something that isn't so tall that it becomes unmanageable for the short of leg. I don't care WHO makes it. Anything close will get me interested.

    Anyone want to take a shot at conceptualizing a bike? Because if not, I have a long list :norton
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  2. The_Precious_Juice

    The_Precious_Juice The Virginian

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    Put me down for that one.
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  3. SATEX

    SATEX Long timer

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    Great list. I shortened it for you to make it even better. I 100 percent agree with your narrative also.

    I don't want, but I could accept a slightly larger motor. Strongly prefer a twin, but the configuration isn't critical. I suspect a v twin would potentially produce more low end torque, but I think a parallel twin would be more compact. All that said, the motor could have triangle shaped pistons and I would still care only about how it works.
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  4. mojave

    mojave Been here awhile

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    Seems like Yamaha could do this with the 700 twin. At least it would have the power to go whatever speed you wanted, and hit the 400 pound limit.

    I do quite a bit of offroad with road bikes. It's the nature of riding here in the South Sierra and Mojave. What's a big deal is deep sand and rock gardens.
    The main two things that will help through the rough stuff is light weight and not being too tall. That means suspension has to be limited to 6 inches or so. That means you can't go as fast. But is 50 mph instead of 65 mph on a dirt road a big deal?

    I've own a couple Dakars - 400 pounds, will cruise 75 OK. After fixing the mushy suspension these do OK offroad. But I'd rather have a lower faster more road oriented bike even if I have to be more careful offroad.
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  5. John Ashman

    John Ashman Adventurer Wannabe

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    I would certainly be up for an XT700Z Tenere, or an XT700 flat track or trail bike based on the 1970s XT500. I think it would be easy to do 8" of suspension and still keep the bike fairly low, the only trade off being that you'd have a relatively short peg to seat distance (which is okay for my legs).

    [​IMG][​IMG]
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  6. John Ashman

    John Ashman Adventurer Wannabe

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    Having owned one of these, I'd love to see a new one, perhaps with chan drive, single shock and wire wheels, perhaps a 19" up front. iIt was quite light and maneuverable. I think its main problem is that it wasn't as capable as its flat track theme made it out to be. I took mine off road a few times, but it wasn't nearly as dirt as it was street. Needs a better frame, wheels, suspension for sure.

    [​IMG]
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  7. Lion BR

    Lion BR I'd rather be riding

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    Done:

    [​IMG]

    Now about the 530cc idea for a Tiger motor... unfortunately removing one cylinder won't do it. Taking a motor from a triple to a twin is a huge difference. Might as well start from scratch. Computers design those things well.

    But why do that when you already have a nice 500 twin available? Rally Raid is working on the spoked wheels, a suspension kit, bash plate. It will be a nice set up, for a total under 10K, including the price of a motorcycle, and with ABS!
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  8. ViperJustin

    ViperJustin Retired HH60G Gunner

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    Pow! Right in the kisser.

    That's looking great. I've been closely watching this develop. I'm also waiting to see what Yamaha does with the 700. I'm counting the new AT out, as I believe the bike they showed us was nothing more than a concept.
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  9. Sig_Sour

    Sig_Sour Been here awhile

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    Take the engine from the Yamaha FZ-07, stick it in a WR450F, and put a XT660Z Tenere (read: small) fairing on it.

    Basically, an Aprilia RXV for Earthlings. That's all I want.
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  10. BygDaddee

    BygDaddee Where do I get a pie

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    KLE500, spend some money of suspension, brakes, a bit more power, there's still plenty of good ones around

    Read the specs, you'll be surprised
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  11. Cruz

    Cruz Lost but laughing.

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    [​IMG]

    Someone had to say it!

    Shouldn't this post be in Road Warriors?
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  12. Murphy Slaw

    Murphy Slaw Long timer

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    Bingo.
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  13. MotoChris521

    MotoChris521 expert apprentice

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    They did make one.

    http://www.xrv.org.uk/forums/attachments/transalp/22137d1358846526-1989-transalp-p7300003.jpg
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  14. mojave

    mojave Been here awhile

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    The little vee Ascot had about as much power as the Transalp and weighed less. I think I'd take the Ascot with better wheels, chain, and a little wind screen. Of course, a Dakar is what you get.

    BTW, for a while I obsessed about the FT500 - the Ascot Thumper. I had owned two different SR500's and the SRX600, i wanted some variety, and thought it would be nice to not have to kick and kick and kick. I drove up to Fresno to check out a prime example, waste of a day, the bikes are incredibly slow.
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  15. John Ashman

    John Ashman Adventurer Wannabe

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    My buddy wanted to copy me and got an FT500 and I hated it by comparison.

    I think the VT Ascot had such promise. Though I love shaft, it was an odd choice. I don't think anyone at the time was asking for a flat tracker for the street, really. But a wire wheeled, chain drive, 19" fronted, flat tracker for DP use? I think that would have flown.

    As for the TranAlp, Honda made bucks on it, but only brought it to the US for a couple of years, before the ADV market was actually a thing.

    "The Transalp is huge. European cities are clogged with them, and the likely reason Honda left the Transalp unchanged for seven years was that it was selling so fast."

    A CB500 TransAlp would be the tits.
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  16. John Ashman

    John Ashman Adventurer Wannabe

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    A new KLE (NOT Versys) would be a wonderul replacement potential for the KLR650. And I think the KLR should be replaced by a 450 single. The Kaw 650 twin is as light as the 650 single, from what I've been able to determine.
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  17. SATEX

    SATEX Long timer

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    Two problems ... we are talking about what we want a manufacturer to produce. The RR approach will work, but the end result is not a $10k motorcycle, imo.
    The second problem (again just imo) is the ABS. It may be ok if it's easily turned off, but it brings more complexity and weight the than the primary purpose requires.
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  18. John Ashman

    John Ashman Adventurer Wannabe

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    A Honda version of this, like an actual TransAlp, with lower weight and price tag would be quite awesome. But if the RR costs and weighs nearly as much as a larger stock bike, like an F800GS, I don't think it will have the pull, unless the suspension and upgrades are absolutely top notch. Even then, I think the target audience would like to see a 400lb wet weight and I don't think anyone but the factory can make that happen, really.
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  19. John Ashman

    John Ashman Adventurer Wannabe

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    BTW, in case anyone didn't read some of the news, the EBR 1190AX is delayed until 2016 at best and is supposedly a competitor for the new BMW/Yamaha/KTM street ADV bikes.

    HOWEVER, they apparently have been hard at work with Hero and have co-developed this (and others), and this 620 twin engine might go nicely in an EBT contributed ADV bike design, possibly sooner rather than later. Of course, I wouldn't expect the bike I would actually like to see, but more a road commuter kind of bike. But they certainly could do it if they wanted. OTOH, that bike looks a bit....cheap and heavy.

    [​IMG]
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  20. danketchpel

    danketchpel Long timer

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    I agree, Kawi needs to dump that old tractor engine 650 thumper and get busy stuffing the 650 Versys twin into a suitable updated chassis in the KLR theme. Just rubber mount that vibey little engine.

    I think Triumph could do a baby Tiger using the 675 triple and scale down the bike about 7/8 the size.

    I think Yamaha has the best chance with their -07 twin to make mini Tenere.

    If love to see a 700 - 750 Super Enduro from KTM using a scaled down version of their V-twin and make it rideable for people under 6ft tall dang it.

    I think 7.5 - 8.0" of suspension travel is realistic and reasonable to achieve a decent seat height and not be a handful in the rougher stuff.

    I was adamant about wanting a twin until I found the Husky 650 which is as smooth or smoother than most twins I've ridden and the power is stout. I think if more companies made thumpers like that people would go for them. I realized it was possible with the right engineering.

    But a light modern twin with a good 6 spd trans would be a good thing.

    There are some good engines out there now if the companies choose to develop suitable bikes around them.
    #20