Fantasy mini-ADV twin.....

Discussion in 'Moto Bellissima: All Other Dualsports' started by John Ashman, Nov 12, 2014.

  1. richtidebruin

    richtidebruin Lurking since 2003..

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2011
    Oddometer:
    156
    Location:
    Middle TN
    I'd like to see the new Yamaha R3 320 cc twin engine (in max torque tune) in a wr250r frame with a Brittania Composites type fairing and a 3.5 gal tank. But that's probably asking too much...

    It would give you a 320-ish pound twin with fully adjustable 10" f/r suspension for $8k or thereabouts..
    #21
    falcn likes this.
  2. Kommando

    Kommando Long timer

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2006
    Oddometer:
    12,470
    Location:
    By the Great Lakes
    Oh heck yeah! I'd love to try some of those bikes you describe.

    The DR650 has a fairly low seat and 10" of suspension travel, but a twin engine may be tougher to fit in that kind of frame than a thumper motor is. DDCs and an adjustable shock, held up with appropriate springs, seem to work pretty well for the near-400lb economy bike though. A light and torquey 55WHP+ twin motor with a DR-like chassis/frame, Jap reliability, and with a slightly longer seat, would be an absolute blast while still being practical. If they kept it under 400lb curb it would be awesome, while possibly still ridiculously affordable. Even better if it had a tank that swapped as easily for trails or trips, to be able to change to something like an 8gal Safari in minutes.
    #22
  3. John Ashman

    John Ashman Adventurer Wannabe

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2008
    Oddometer:
    3,857
    Location:
    Viejo Mexico
    KTM is supposedly working on a 500cc P2, and a 750cc or 800cc P2 which I can only assume would be used in Duke or ADV products.

    I would be all in for a 500cc Adventure.

    I predict that some company will soon come through and when they do, the sales will be off the charts and everyone else is going to rush to get a piece of this action. I really hope it's Triumph though with a small Tiger, though a BMW or KTM would be likely as sweet. I mean, America tends to be slow on the pickup, but there's a whole world out there that is raised on 125-250cc bikes that are looking for the next big upgrade at 500-600cc and that's a lot of potential sales in Latin America and Asia.

    It's just a shame that the KLE500 and TransAlp weren't modernized and continued.
    #23
  4. richtidebruin

    richtidebruin Lurking since 2003..

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2011
    Oddometer:
    156
    Location:
    Middle TN
    The DR650 has a fairly low seat and 10" of suspension travel, but a twin engine may be tougher to fit in that kind of frame than a thumper motor is. DDCs and an adjustable shock, held up with appropriate springs, seem to work pretty well for the near-400lb economy bike though. A light and torquey 55WHP+ twin motor with a DR-like chassis/frame, Jap reliability, and with a slightly longer seat, would be an absolute blast while still being practical. If they kept it under 400lb curb it would be awesome, while possibly still ridiculously affordable. Even better if it had a tank that swapped as easily for trails or trips, to be able to change to something like an 8gal Safari in minutes.[/QUOTE]

    Heck, if only Suzuki had a "Hard Parts" bin to accessorize (read bring into the 21st century) the mighty DR with plug-and-play options, they would rake in the dough.... such as an up-to-date Digital Dash upgrade, Fully adjustable front fork option, tank and mini-fairing options, as well as hard and soft luggage and plastics kits... Very few people argue the DR as a solid starting point to be a good ADV bike, but many (like me) don't want to go through the effort required to turn it into what you really want it to be straight from the factory.
    #24
  5. tokyo

    tokyo Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2006
    Oddometer:
    332
    Location:
    Utah, Japan
    This and this

    The RXV 550 twin weighed 313lbs wet I think? And how much does reliability weigh? Add 40lbs of reliability and gas capacity and there you go, a 350lb twin for fun and adventure.
    #25
  6. John Ashman

    John Ashman Adventurer Wannabe

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2008
    Oddometer:
    3,857
    Location:
    Viejo Mexico
    Actually, a twin should be about 1" shorter than a single, but wider. Or...it would leave room for a more square, higher torque engine. Not sure if that's what you meant though.
    #26
    larryboy likes this.
  7. John Ashman

    John Ashman Adventurer Wannabe

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2008
    Oddometer:
    3,857
    Location:
    Viejo Mexico
    I think you could simply detune the 550 from a 12.5:1 compression ratio to a more typical 10:1 ratio and get most of the reliability you'd need right there with no extra weight. I'd absolutely want that bike for DP use.
    #27
    larryboy likes this.
  8. mojave

    mojave Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2007
    Oddometer:
    786
    Location:
    Inyokern - middle of nowhere, center of everything
    I had a DR650 for while, did lots of mods, finally sold it when I picked up a cheap used WRR. I kind of miss the DR sometimes.

    Suzuki is so cheap they have essentially never altered that bike. They could easily;

    1. Brighten the stodgy engine another 5 HP or so with compression and topend changes (tiny valves!). This can be done without compromising the excellent reliability.

    2. Put the pretty OK DRZ400S forks on it instead of the DISMAL noddlely piston damper forks. Adjustable shock please. And put the right spring rates on so the very first thing you don't have to do is buy 40% stiffer springs!

    3. Spare us the "MX inspired" seat - put a real seat on for crying out loud. There is practically a dedicated aftermarket seat INDUSTRY generated by this one model.

    4. maybe a small Dakar style fairing? One that can be easily replaced or detached.

    5. A larger tank, what's with the 110 mile range tank that was inadequate in 1980 Suzuki?

    The bike is so flawed that people spend thousands to (try to) fixed the flaws. That means the bike has enough good points to be worth the trouble. Why Suzuki doesn't just fixed some of these in the design is beyond me. It won't be a 690, but it doesn't have to be. But a honest 40HP (like the Dakar), a little wind pro, decent suspension, comfy seat, >150 mile range, all at 60 pounds under a KLR and they would have to ramp up production.
    #28
  9. mojave

    mojave Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2007
    Oddometer:
    786
    Location:
    Inyokern - middle of nowhere, center of everything
    [QUOTEI think you could simply detune the 550 from a 12.5:1 compression ratio to a more typical 10:1 ratio and get most of the reliability you'd need right there with no extra weight. I'd absolutely want that bike for DP use.][/QUOTE]

    It might from both a compression drop and a considerably lower rev limit. Peak power would be down quite a bit I'd think. I think the compression drop is probably less important than the rev limit - maybe 11.X to 1 would be fine. Aprilia certainly tested to strike a compromise between race performance and longevity.
    #29
  10. Kommando

    Kommando Long timer

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2006
    Oddometer:
    12,470
    Location:
    By the Great Lakes
    I'm not familiar with typical exterior engine dimensions/shapes, but if what you say is true/accurate, 10" of travel with a 33-34" seat height should be easy enough to come by...seeing as the DR650 manages it. I could probably even shave 2" or so off of that, but I can ride a shaved DR seat all day, which some people view as either inhuman or as mythical as an honest politician riding a winged unicorn.
    #30
  11. John Ashman

    John Ashman Adventurer Wannabe

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2008
    Oddometer:
    3,857
    Location:
    Viejo Mexico
    The area under the seat has become more and more vacant over time. Most of the seat height designs are based on hitting a specific ergonomic profile for a nearly 6' person, rather than actual limitations on design. So, yes, we could make an ADV bike with a 33-34" seat height, a good 10" of travel and clearance, no problem, but it might get a little uncomfortable for a person 6' tall. But, you know, there are a lot of bikes that take on that customer. OR....you just put a taller seat on it and higher bars.

    I just looked up the strokes for a 650 twin versus a 650 single from Kawasaki and the former was an inch shorter than the latter, so...all things being equal.....
    #31
  12. MotoChris521

    MotoChris521 motominded

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2007
    Oddometer:
    3,533
    Location:
    south west
    Specs found online ;

    '83 VT500 ascot- dry # 177 kg / HP 47.5
    '89 XLV600 transalp- dry# 174 kg / HP 55
    #32
  13. John Ashman

    John Ashman Adventurer Wannabe

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2008
    Oddometer:
    3,857
    Location:
    Viejo Mexico
    I'm kinda wishing I had a TransAlp about now.

    The thing is, we have all this modern design/materials now and new designs and still can't seem to apply it to anything lesst than 800cc because....what? Because there is this assumption that people will only buy large engined bikes, even though less is more offroad. Save the cost on the engine, put it into the suspension, frame, lighter materials, etc. And....KISS. No need for traction control, anti-lock brakes, computers, etc, etc. I'd even take an aircooled engine at this point.

    Modern suspension/frame, etc with a light, simple, aircooled, modern twin? I'd take it. Kinda like a CRF230....but with a bigger engine.
    #33
    larryboy likes this.
  14. Maxacceleration

    Maxacceleration Off the grid

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2009
    Oddometer:
    3,716
    Location:
    Wa
    Ah, the fantasy bike ...what we don't have.
    The 600 Transalp was so far ahead of it time. If it would of been tweaked over the years like say the CBR600, could you imagine where it could be at today? Probably overweight lol.
    And a Triumph Cub twin of 500cc +- today brings on dreams of easy backroad travel.
    Ah, if only...

    The closest small/mid-weight bike to me is the CB500X. They are so close. The look is there now (subject to opinion). If a little crossing of the CCMGP450 and the 500X was done design wise the 500X could be at the top.
    Of course there will be those who will say 'my 800 is underpowered!?' lol, those folks are destined for the big power pig bikes.
    OK, options. Honda already has two 500 twin bikes with 17" wheels. The CBX does not need to be the third bike with 17" wheels. WHY? (because its easy I suppose)
    Jump on the idea of wheels size options (Triumph Tigers 800's, BMW 700/800GS's), and bring the CBX with 17/19" wheels with the option of 18/21's.
    Ya there would be a bit of redesign, but at the factory level, it would be right (hopefully RR is right too).
    Now here is where the problem starts... Price. Everyone on here does not understand why a bike with all your wanted featured can't be sold cheap.
    The CB500X is cheap now. So you miss a few features. Its a price point world market bike more than a specialized adventure bike.
    It sure looks like a good start though...
    A world market 250 Tenere (lightened up) with the new 320 twin, retuned, would be another sweet niche market bike. Buy a license to sell Yamaha branded Giant Loop type style soft luggage? And bingo!

    [​IMG]

    Why does Brasil get these choices over the USA?
    #34
  15. Kommando

    Kommando Long timer

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2006
    Oddometer:
    12,470
    Location:
    By the Great Lakes
    A lot of people aren't asking for something any "fancier" than the CB500X. It just didn't have enough dirt cred for people like me to bite, even at a fantastic price. I don't think Honda would have had to spend much to fit a modest CRF250L-similar suspension and possibly wheels to the CB500X. ABS may have been a bit more costly to fit, but it could have been as optional as it is now, and a 450lb 500-class adv twin with ABS and dirt-capable wheels/suspension would have gone over bigger instead of a faux-adv bike, even if the price had to come up $500-$750 or so. Basically, I don't think they would have put hardly any current owners off by using at least a 19" front wheel (preferably even a 21"er), but they sure as hell put some people off by using sportbike-sized shoes.

    Even the funky overweight KLE650 Versys could have been a bigger hit with a 19 or 21" front wheel and an early offering of an ABS option.

    It's almost unbelievable how repeatedly close some mfrs come and still miss the target in the US market for an economical multi-cylinder adv bike with at least respectable dirt cred. WTF is an adv-STYLE bike? Get real. The targeting to a poseur market, over people who would actually leave pavement, is a stupid move, IMO, if you're selling something with "adv" or similar in the marketing. It wouldn't have cost them much to just do it right. A small outfit like a Thai racing team could do it. You'd think that somebody like Honda could figure it out. It's like they cried "wolf". If they actually come out with a decent dirt-capable bike now, I wonder how many people won't trust the marketing hype at first. By the time the bike starts getting popular, they'll deem it a dud and discontinue it. Look at how long it took for something like the DR650SE to get popular. It took a company like Procycle to offer awesome aftermarket stuff for people to start seeing what a diamond in the rough the bike was vs the much more popular KLR. Now the used market favors DR sellers in most places.
    #35
  16. John Ashman

    John Ashman Adventurer Wannabe

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2008
    Oddometer:
    3,857
    Location:
    Viejo Mexico
    Well, because they build them!

    The CB500X with a 19" front wire rims and slightly longer suspension (even 1-2") wouldn't really cost much at all more to build, but would sell for an extra $500-$1000 premium without quesiton. Even as piggish as it is for a 500cc bike.
    #36
    larryboy likes this.
  17. Maxacceleration

    Maxacceleration Off the grid

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2009
    Oddometer:
    3,716
    Location:
    Wa
    Its the lightest 500 twin going at the moment! (besides Honda other two 500 twin models) Ok, the Ninja 300 and the R3 twins I suppose (not set up to handle adv duties).
    I don't think we'll ever see a 350-375 lb. (dry, and certainly not wet) twin in an adventure format.
    The mfg (any mfg) has to over design an adv style bike to survive us overpacking adv fools. :D There is a strength to weight ratio I would guess.
    Add big long forks, a frame that will handle your twin saddlebags/top case/kitchen sink, skids, crash bars, etc. It all adds up... to a 500+ lb 500cc bike loaded down.
    Senseless IMO.
    I don't think we'll ever see the mythical, magical 350 lb twin adv bike.
    Maybe 400-420 wet, which brings it pretty close to the 350-375 mark dry.
    We'll see.
    What Japan can build may be quite different to what they will build.

    And I agree, many don't want more than what the 500X is now.

    But this is a fantasy thread. The 500X could be done better.

    Oh, and how much heavier are spoked wheels vs mag wheels generally? Or are they?
    Are there any Japanese steel framed bikes using chrome moly steel vs mild steel?

    Let the fantasy continue. :evil
    #37
    larryboy likes this.
  18. John Ashman

    John Ashman Adventurer Wannabe

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2008
    Oddometer:
    3,857
    Location:
    Viejo Mexico
    Well, for instance, my idea for a Tiger 530 line would include a swappable tail section that would be beefed up for an ADV tourer, but lighter and more compact for a trail bike or sport bike. A smaller tank for balance up front.

    I think it's entirely possible, it's just...would they do it. Remember that the RXV550 is about 320lbs wet. Take that platform, detune it, add a little stronger subframe, big tank and a minimal fairing and you should be right at 375lbs wet. A little more with some other beefier parts, bringing it to as much as 400lbs wet.

    A CB500X ADV bike would end up at 450lbs probably with new wheels and tires alone.

    My, IMO, realistic goal, would be 400lbs wet for an RTW tourer (plus luggage), 350-375 for a naked trail bike. That's only about 50lbs less than an 800 twin.
    #38
    larryboy likes this.
  19. x32792

    x32792 Cracker American

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2007
    Oddometer:
    2,753
    Location:
    Winter Park, Florida
    Fact is any major could build the Urban Myth Adv Bike:

    Twin something
    75HP
    400 pounds
    10" suspension travel, equal ground clearance
    EFI or carb (who cares?)
    Six speed transmission
    Ergonomics for someone taller than 5'4" and heavier than 140 pounds

    Unfortunately, THEY don't see the need to make this bike. Perhaps selling 500-600 pound bikes with computer driven SkyNet Suspension, popcorn maker and overly complex engineering is more profitable? Maybe the Urban Myth Adv Bike market segment is too small OR they just don't want to do it? Who knows what motives the Masters Of The Universe (Honda, Kawa, Yama, Triumph, KTM, BMW) to do anything?

    Bottom line, it doesn't seem to be happening.
    #39
  20. Abbotson

    Abbotson Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2005
    Oddometer:
    180
    Location:
    Central Oklahoma
    If the seat is kept in the 29-32 range a lot more female riders would be interested to buy. That is why the BMW F650GS has more women riders. :toney

    There is nothing wrong with 6" of suspension because how many triple jumps are you going to do on an adventure bike? At least a rider could put their feet down on the ground when needed. I believe that is why more riders fall is because they can't touch the ground. :wink:
    #40