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Discussion in 'Moto Bellissima: All Other Dualsports' started by John Ashman, Nov 12, 2014.
The Desert Sled looks fantastic, what the Scrambler should always have been. I heard that it is $11,300 which would be unfortunate, but at least it is what the Urban Explore should always have been. The Versys-X is the other biggie to me, aside from conceptual bigger bore rally vaporware.
The rise of the mini-ADV bike
The Versys-X 300 recycles old Kawi technology to keep prices down.
For a few months now, we’ve seen spy shots and other glimpses of information that hinted at an explosion of small-capacity bikes on the adventure motorcycling scene. Now, four of those machines have debuted. Honda brought out the CRF250 Rally, Kawasaki brought out the Versys-X 300, BMW introduced the G310 GS, and Suzuki confirmed the V-Strom 250 project.
Considering no major motorcycle manufacturer has had an adventure bike in this class since Honda dropped the NX250 from its lineup, that’s a pretty busy day.
None of these bikes are in the same class as the NX250 (or its high-spec equivalent, the AX-1). They’re all just repackaged versions of existing technology — not super-powerful, and not that light. They’re all based on budget machines. But they should be much more comfortable to ride on the street than the old farkled-out dual-sports that were the answer for riders wanting a small-capacity adventure bike in years gone by.
North American riders will bemoan the lack of techno-wizardry and big horsepower on these bikes, but the reality is, machines like these are the future of motorcycling, brought on by a combination of emissions standards, rising buying power in developing countries, lackluster sales in our own market, and the harsh realities faced by companies struggling to cut costs and streamline production. This is the future, like it or not.
I don't get this class for the States at all. Maybe in other countries with tax or learner rules but not here.
Most of the 250-300 bikes are under powered and still rather porky for their displacement. Adding ADV hardware will just make things worse. The CX-3 250 is a classic example, a 400 lb 250 with about 25 hp. Why??? Explain what the redeeming feature is other than price? I've ridden one and just don't see the point. The same applies to Honda's new ADV 250 bike, the CRF250L is ~340 lbs and the ADV version will be heavier with little mention of more power.
I think the Ducati Desert Sled rocks, it's what I had hoped for the first time. The price is up there a bit but then so are all the decent bikes these days. Ya, it's ~450 lbs but it's got ~80 hp which puts the power/weight ratio in a decent place.
I agree, but that's not really the point. What makes it special is precisely because it is "too small". For the first time in decades, someone built an ADV twin that is actually "too small"! Talk about refreshing, after decades of them all being too big. Now maybe someone will be motivated to build one that is "just right". It won't be the Yamaha T7 Tenere, but it could be a 490 Adventure or a Triumph Tiger Cub, possibly a future Yamaha T4/T5 Tenere, a CB500XR, an F600GS (because an F900GS is just inevitable). And in other countries, the Versys X will be a freaking Gold Wing by most people's standards. So it will sell like hotcakes. It would be interesting to take a lightly crashed one and turn it into a scrambler. Not sure why they're not already announcing one to go with it, but oh well.
I agree too on the Rally, it is too heavy, too expensive and should have the 283cc engine, absolutely, to handle the extra weight, with a whole lot less practicality.
Same with the Desert Sled. Very sweet, but to me, that should be no more than $10K because the Urban Enduro is a $9000 bike at best. They are just tacking on random costs based on what they think people will pay. The added weight is a downer. I think it weighs as much as an F800GS, actually.
BMW has announced a GS310 as well.
Dead sexy and might even be reasonably priced, but sad that it's just a glorified street bike. If this were more geared as an offroad dual sport, I'd be very, very excited about it. But it bodes well for the small ADV segment. Maybe they'll build a 500-600cc twin. I think the F800GS is going to get the 900 engine at some point. I don't see why they haven't already done it.
The tuning of the 900 engine is completely different - very appropriate for a street-biased supermoto, but not really what you want for an ADV. Not that the folks who raced it off road didn't make the additional but necessary and expensive mods.
Interesting. I suspect they could tune it to get the basic torque curve they wanted though. But if not, that would explain it. I really thought that was going to happen this year in order to more closely take on the AT.
I think the real kicker to a small ADV bike is the seat hight. My wife would love her own bike to hit some forest service roads with me.....but she is only 5'1" tall and weighs in at a whopping 95 pounds. I want her to have a bike with ABS and traction control, cruise at 80 mph, weight about 350 lbs, decent ground clearance....and all with a seat height of 25".
I feel the first manufacture to tick those boxes will have a lot of female riders lined up with their purses open. I was really hoping the GS310 would fit the bill....but a 30"+ seat height knocks it out of contention. A lowered GS650 almost has it, but it is still tall for her, has decreased ground clearance when lowered, and is a little heavy for what it is.
Yeah, that is a tough one because anything with a big engine is now super tall. I remember being excited about the SuperDuke and when I tried to sit on it, my legs wouldn't comfortably go over it. Sounds like a project bike in the making.
Once again, I refer you to the "Shortypants" thread. A 25" seat height is unreasonable given any [edit: reasonable off-road] frame geometry, but LOTS of short women are riding off-road. Read the whole thread, then ask questions.
ANY frame geometry? Anything is possible, but it is definitely pushing boundaries big time. Like stating with a trials bike frame or something. I have a friend that is 4/10 and she could ride a 28" seat height little problem. You should be able to do 2" over your inseam without stress. A five foot tall person should be able to ride 28" seat height easily.
Here's a possibility if you're motiviated enough -
27" seat height cruiser with the CB500X engine in it. You'd have to rearrange the ergos, but the parts for that are readily available.
Sorry, I was typing too fast at the end of my lunch break. I meant to say any current off-road geometry. Lots of folks have started with the trials frame, which is where the KTM Freeride and the Beta Crosstrainer have come from. Others start with the small motocrossers designed for teenagers or the 140 / 150 cc Kawasaki's and Honda's.
And I agree, 2-inches over your inseam is acceptable for beginners; the learning curve lets you go higher with skill and experience. Hence my comment that 25" is unreasonably low. Also, a 27" cruiser frame won't cut the necessary ground clearance, although it holds the engine and meets the seat height. Suspension gets you half way there; the rest is frame geometry for both ground clearance and seat height.
Back to the Shortypants thread, this is all discussed in detail, with many women from across the USA (and some outside it) chiming in with what they have actually built and ride - so it is not a theoretical discussion, which is why I value it.
Finally sees the light of day in Milan, and is now on its way to Australia in 2017
CFMoto's oft-promised adventure touring bike based on its 650cc parallel twin platform has finally surfaced, and we’ll be seeing the 650MT in Australia in the first quarter of 2017.
It has been four years (2012) since the very first large capacity road bike from CFMoto, the 650NK, was introduced, and since then we've seen the 650TK tourer added to the line-up, and now finally the adventure tourer.
The MT features the same powerplant as the 650NK, a 649.3cc liquid-cooled parallel-twin, with Bosch fuel injection. In LAMS form, it boasts 55h (41.5KW) at 9500rpm and 62Nm of torque at 7000rpm.
Compared to the NK, the MT adds longer travel suspension and new upside-down forks, a larger capacity fuel tank (up by one-litre to 18), a talker screen, and an extra 20mm ground clearance. The seat height is 840mm, and kerb weight 213kg.
It will track on tarmac-focussed 17-inch rubber.
“We are excited to see the 650MT to finally make it to Australia,” said CFMoto Australia Director Michael Poynton. “It will be great to prove how capable the CFMoto product is in the adventure touring market.
“The 650MT will be the bike to take you on your next weekend adventure and not break the bank. It will be a highly capable and durable bike, just take a look at the 650NK.”
Colours are r
Looks like the 250 ADV Twin market is growing - https://paultan.org/2017/10/19/2018...arallel-twin-engines-new-tnt-300-sports-bike/
I don't know excited I'd get over any 250-300 twin ADV bike unless you just want it for road use. I've ridden quite a few 250 - 350cc twins over the years and most make their power way up in the rpm range. For road work that's OK, but for any off-road it's less than ideal. A buddy of mine who has a CSC RX-3 250 and has ridden a Versys 300X told me he'd prefer the 250 thumper in the dirt as the 300 twin only makes decent torque around 7k rpm or so. I've ridden the Ninja 300 it's based off and completely believe it as that engine only makes good torque starting around 9k rpm and decent passing power from 12-14k rpm.
Honda used to sell SL 350 twins back in the day which might have about the best torque curve as any smaller twin. I've ridden a couple of the street version street version CB 350/360 bikes.
The other that stands out is the Moto Morini Camel 350. I rode the street bike that used this engine and it was pretty decent but you're still spinning some rpm.
Honestly a well balanced 450-500 twin would be more interesting to me for real ADV riding. Off-road torque is critical.
I agree, but the fact that the 250-300 class is booming is a good reason to expect more 500cc action.
That's only 16 kg less than a Multistrada 950, and actually heavier than a Desert Sled....