Fantasy mini-ADV twin.....

Discussion in 'Moto Bellissima: All Other Dualsports' started by John Ashman, Nov 12, 2014.

  1. John Ashman

    John Ashman Adventurer Wannabe

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    They need to have a "General Bike Discussion" thing under each subsection, to go along with the brand specific ones. The forum is getting so chopped up, it's not that attractive anymore. I almost got banned for this thread because of a few aholes that think all bikes have to be big and expensive.
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  2. Gustavo

    Gustavo Motociclista Errante

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    What kind of riding do you usually do or intend to do with this bike? The more you go off-road, the better the lighter bikes will be. If your off-road (or off pavement) riding is far from where you start, the two cylinder bikes will be a lot more appealing for the longer pavement sections. It also depends on what's "powerful enough" for you. If you have realistic expectations for any of these, they will all work well. If you expect the Himalaya to be as good as the V-Strom on road, you'll be disappointed. Conversely, if you expect the V-Strom to be as easy to handle off-road as G310GS, again, you will be disappointed.

    The Versys-X300 and CB500X straddle the middle ground. Maybe start there and see which way you need an improvement or maybe they are the Goldilocks solution...

    Gustavo
  3. John Ashman

    John Ashman Adventurer Wannabe

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    The CB300R isn't super light, but I was pretty surprised they got it down that far. Not a Honda priority. They use it for the CB125R as well. I'm liking the idea that they converted it into an ADV bike, though maybe it is all show.

    I still can't figure out why Honda would do a heavy "rally" bike without putting the 300cc engine in it. That's just dumb.
  4. danketchpel

    danketchpel Long timer

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    I think Gustavo's reply is quite good.

    There are different requirements for different types of riding and after trying many different configurations of bikes find there are definite factors that favor one type of riding or another.

    The more technical the off-road, the lighter the bike needs to be and the more bottom end torque will help. The more and faster pavement that is involved heavier bikes with the powerband moved up some work better. As you try to straddle both worlds it become a favorable bias thing that needs to match your personal requirements and preferences.

    I also have found I prefer torque over rpm biased power and have come to prefer at least 400cc singles to 650cc and 500cc twins to 800cc. I'm also quite fond of triples which would fall in the 700 - 800cc range. I might entertain a 650 triple but kinda doubt it. I've ridden 250 - 400 twins and didn't enjoy them that much, personal preference thing.

    But if you're off-road doesn't involve much sand or gnarly terrain where you have move from dead stops or up steep inclines from short distances a small bore twin can work OK, think more mellow 2 track and fire roads.

    I really would find some thing like the Honda CB500X interesting if it came with a 270 crank, wire wheels, and suitable suspension. I find it an interesting size/weight balance. Kawasaki did sell the KLE 500 overseas which was a 500cc twin in a KLR type format. Why we never saw it here in the States is beyond me.

    There have been sooooo many light ADV style twins sold in the past, yet so very few currently available. I don't know if this was a market rejection/poor sales issue or something else like emission regs or ??? But you have to ask the question, what happened to what once existed and why?
  5. John Ashman

    John Ashman Adventurer Wannabe

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    If you're talking just road use, the CB500X is small, light and plenty powerful and now can be had used. I wouldn't get a single unless my *primary* use was offroading, or perhaps purely intown use. Out on the highway, the twins are so much better. An NC750X might also be a good bike since it has such a low CoG. The G310 is really a small urban commuter bike. The small Versys is more leggy, but obviously less torquey and powerful compared to a CB500X. The new Versys is slightly more setup for dirt riding than the CB500X though.
  6. John Ashman

    John Ashman Adventurer Wannabe

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    This is where for me, the near perfect bike still remains elusive. It would be great to have a bike that is convertible. A lightweight twin in the lightest possible frame, with a dirt oriented seat/tank/subrame. But with the option of buying a bag setup that strenghtens the subframe by bolting over it, a comfy think bench seat that swaps into place, and a way of attaching more fuel capacity, or even simply removing the smaller tank and dropping on a bigger one. Or, for instance, a split tank with 2gallons or so above and 2-3 gallons below the seat. For lighter dirt riding, ou just go with underseat tank, to help with the CoG and manueverability.
  7. danketchpel

    danketchpel Long timer

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    John,

    I'm actually kind curious as to what the complete specs of your elusive ideal bike would be. In comparing the last statements they seem somewhat conflicting.

    I think the division between dirt bike, ADV bike, and road bike should be set. If you see the G310 as small commuter bike but want the lightest possible frame with a dirt oriented seat/tank/subframe with some sort of ~300-350cc twin I guess. Then with enough strength to the frame to be able to bolt on strengthening bag setup (it still needs to mount to something suitably strong) and extra fuel which requires more frame strength. They are conflicting and one of the reasons ADV bikes weigh more than proper dirt bikes.

    The Aprilia RSV450/550 was about as close to "light as possible twin with dirt bike orientation" as feasible, it was basically a race bike. It's a good semblence of your description. But I'm not sure how you meld the strength for luggage and extra fuel along with durability. I don't discount the detachable fuel tank that couples into a permanent mounted tank, that sort of approach has been done by the aftermarket in a few cases, but it needs mounting points of suitable strength.

    I'm also not sure how much or how far you'd plan to ride on the pavement and at what speed. That aspect really defines one end of the spectrum for sure. If the pavement is slower back roads or 3rd world pavement (read not superslab interstates) then you can get away with a lighter bike and you won't be too miserable. If you need to ride on interstate level pavement for very long the definition starts to change. But people have proven you can ride to Alaska on a scooter etc so there's all levels of personal endurance.

    After all this thread I'm just curious as to how you spell out your ideal bike and what you have in mind for it's potential use, ie riding conditions you perceive? I kinda laid out some parameters I see in post# 544 and I've put my money down on a few bikes, with Desert Sled 800 twin (~450 lbs) being the closest to this subject, with a ADV style 650 single (~425 lbs), and dual sport 500 single (~300 lbs) going down from there. I've had a dual sported 2-stroke 300 single (~260 lbs), all weights wet full of fuel. I've kinda owned and ridden the gamut in terms of size and weight, plus a passel of other bikes in the past, both owned or just ridden. From all that I'm finding my own happy place in bike ownership and can state I've never found the unicorn "do it all well" bike if you truly ride a wide range of conditions. If you narrow the conditions you can narrow the bike down to where one bike can handle it reasonably well.
  8. Maxacceleration

    Maxacceleration Off the grid

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  9. danketchpel

    danketchpel Long timer

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    That actually looks like a very fun Scrambler. For ADV you'd just need to figure out how to deal with luggage and those high pipes, but that's not an uncommon hurdle. Kinda wish it had a tad more fuel on-board but maybe it get phenomenal mileage, or it's just a typical Euro thing were 100 miles is acceptable.
  10. Oilhed

    Oilhed MarkF Supporter

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    34A8D807-D2BB-40C8-B7E2-63A5658D871F.jpeg
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  11. danketchpel

    danketchpel Long timer

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    Oilhead,

    Pretty much...... that's about as close as it gets all things considered. You can whittle away at it to alter the focus one way or another but it's pretty much smack in the middle without being a dirt bike with 2 cylinders, ie the Aprilia RXV 450. This is as light as it gets without regard to practical use other than ripping up the dirt. Pretty cool bike if it had been more reliable.

    Claimed DRY weight 265 lbs, so realistic curb weight ~280 lbs with all fluids and a full tank (2.1 gal).

    [​IMG]
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  12. Maxacceleration

    Maxacceleration Off the grid

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    Not every bike needs to be an ADV bike, carry mass gear or need huge range. I realize this is a fantasy mini ADV-(twin no less) thread. But the Caballero Scrambler is bitchin just as it is IMO. Thats where I veer away from the adv mindset of 'uglying up' a bike for the most gear & fuel capacity with certain bikes. Its a sharp bike as is.
    I would buy the bike in a heartbeat if it came to the US.
  13. danketchpel

    danketchpel Long timer

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    I totally agree. It's why I bought the Desert Sled cuz I wanted a Scramber INSTEAD of an ADV styled bike, which by and large are very functional but friggen ugly IMO. I agree, the Caballero Scrambler is bitchen and in a fashion I'd prefer over Super Moto, though they are pretty cool also. I also really like the Flat Track look.

    That said, .... the original premise of this thread was a light weight ADV twin, fantasy included.
  14. John Ashman

    John Ashman Adventurer Wannabe

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    Well, I tend to think like an engineer and understand compromise and tradeoff. I think it is a matter of design. The Aprilias were 330lbs wet as I recall with a very small tank. Frames are designed to handle enormous loads and of course, there's some pretty exciting stuff going on with metallurgy that can get us additional strength from new aluminum alloys. Like the Buells, one could use the frame as storage, eliminating extra mass while adding strength. Some fuel above, some below the seat. Lithium batteries are going to become standard. Lighter exhausts. LED lighting = lighter wiring weight as well. So I think you can make a pretty decent twin enduro in the under 360lb weight category, then with some touring bolt ons, still get to right at 400lbs. I'm fine with a 400-500cc twin, I think that is all the power that is needed. The Kawasaki Versys is getting very close. We're at 450lbs wet with the 700-800cc bikes. No reason why we can't cut the engine sice by 1/3rd and get to under 400 with some creative engineering. Though lord knows the EPA and NTHSA is determine to preven it. I think the idea of a bolt on baggage mounts that strengthen an otherwise light subframe is a pretty solid idea. Kills two birds with one stone.

    In reality, it might end up being an electric bike that hits my goal first. Maybe something that has a single battery for off roading and a couple of slide in modules for extended trips. But I think it can be done with an ICE bike. Some new wheel tech would help, or perhaps the new carbon fiber or metallurgical advances.

    Also, the Desert Sled is bitchin', I think the engine is just too big, that's all. Scale that puppy down to 500cc by cutting every dimension on the bike by about 10% and you'd get to under 400lbs easily.

    I need to do 2-hour highway commutes at times and in between are endless number of 10-25 mile dirt roads that crave a real dirt bike.
  15. John Ashman

    John Ashman Adventurer Wannabe

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    That's precisely the bike Honda should be making with its 283cc and 471cc engines.
  16. danketchpel

    danketchpel Long timer

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    I think some of the ideas you've tossed out have merit, split fuel locations, bolt racks that also add strength. I think you can engineer a lighter twin but some of that will come at an expense as more exotic materials come into play. I like dual use concepts and never quite understood why more dual sport bikes aren't dry sump with oil in the frame like the older bikes, made huge sense to me as the frame acts like an oil cooler also.

    I wouldn't be surprised to see Kawi come out with a Versys 400 as I believe they are introducing the Ninja 400 right now. I looked at and sat on the Versys 300 at the recent show and the basics are pretty close to what you are thinking about, but not in an extreme way, more the typical built to a price/durability target suitable for the Japanese. Your comments suggest something closer to what might come out of Italy or Austria.

    I would agree you don't need more than 500cc, 650cc at the max if you want more torque. Interesting bit on the Ducati Scrambler, the standard Scrambler 800 bikes are about 424 lbs wet. The Sled gained close to 25 lbs and virtually all of that came from added beef in the frame, suspension, and wheels as they had found the standard bikes would break if ridden aggressively off-road, particularly the swingarm mount on the engine cases. The air cooled Ducati engine is quite light in general and is made in smaller sizes already. But I don't see the Ducati engine as the primary weight concern, even my 1000cc Sport Classic is just under 400 lbs and could be less with lighter wheels (they are quite heavy). The key weight concern is in the frame size/strength, suspension (how much travel/strength), and wheels. If you go with narrower rim widths the wheels can be fairly light, that's critical I think as they work better also.

    You might be interested to know Ducati builds a Scrambler 400cc air cooled twin called the Sixty2 and the weight is 403 lbs, about 24 lbs lighter than the 800. The claimed power is 41 hp, about right. It's built primarily for markets that need 400cc bikes for tax and other reasons.

    I looked at the BMW G 310 GS, it's very close to what you want only it's a single. It's listed at ~375 lbs curb weight and the Versys 300 is listed at 386 lbs curb weight, not bad at all.
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  17. John Ashman

    John Ashman Adventurer Wannabe

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    The 310GS would be a whole lot more attractive with the right wheels and suspension. As it is, it's just a 'round town bike for Indians with a few more lakhs in their account. But it has possibility for the future. The Husky Terra is pretty close to what I want, but with a single instead of a smaller twin. AJP would be the company that would do it right with a twin. A 400cc Desert Sled would be great, though just the thought of beating the crap out of a Ducati makes me shudder.
  18. 79thunder

    79thunder Been here awhile

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    Interesting thread!
    I wish I had stumbled across it much sooner. This site is broken into far too many sections.
    While I certainly did not build my bike to fit into the specific parameters, It does fit pretty darn close.
    (the parameters obviously do speak to me!)
    Mine maybe more adventure than enduro, but it suits my needs quite well.

    I've got a little more power and ground clearance than the Versys 300 as well as much better load capacity and crash protection.

    So, If the CRF500L builders can add their bikes to this thread, I'm going to throw my junk in the pile !!!

    It's not quite finished (are they ever really?), knobbies are next on the list..
    My Yamaha 321cc Ptwin powered adventure bike.


    DSCF0069.JPG
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  19. Gustavo

    Gustavo Motociclista Errante

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    Damn, that looks good, 79Thunder. Is that an RX3 with an R3 engine stuffed in it? More details?

    Gustavo
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  20. 79thunder

    79thunder Been here awhile

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