Fantasy mini-ADV twin.....

Discussion in 'Moto Bellissima: All Other Dualsports' started by John Ashman, Nov 12, 2014.

  1. John Ashman

    John Ashman Adventurer Wannabe

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2008
    Oddometer:
    3,857
    Location:
    Viejo Mexico
    Imagine! A 650 twin that is ACTUALLY 650cc!
    #61
    larryboy likes this.
  2. Maxacceleration

    Maxacceleration Off the grid

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2009
    Oddometer:
    3,721
    Location:
    Wa
    A sleeved/destroked 800?
    Which would not necessarily make the bike lighter, unless they did a complete chassis and motor redesign.
    The F650GS (yes 800cc) motor is a charm. Low end torque like you wouldn't believe. I would bet it out pulls the NC700.
    A shame they re tuned it.
    The F800GS guys always talked it down though.
    #62
  3. John Ashman

    John Ashman Adventurer Wannabe

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2008
    Oddometer:
    3,857
    Location:
    Viejo Mexico
    It is actually a shrunken 800 engine though? Seems fairly silly to do that.

    The F650/F700 engines are 800cc.
    #63
    nsu max and larryboy like this.
  4. Maxacceleration

    Maxacceleration Off the grid

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2009
    Oddometer:
    3,721
    Location:
    Wa
    Ah, I did not know of the scooter 650 twin till just now. Sounds different from the 650/700/800. But I do not know.
    As with the Rotax 500 v twin, they both are cvt driven.
    Is it just a simple excercise to add a 6 spd gearbox?
    #64
  5. John Ashman

    John Ashman Adventurer Wannabe

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2008
    Oddometer:
    3,857
    Location:
    Viejo Mexico
    No idea! But it doesn't seem to be that hard to add extra gears or redesign the gearing. And Honda seems to be able to swap DCT and manual pretty easy.
    #65
    larryboy likes this.
  6. Kommando

    Kommando Long timer

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2006
    Oddometer:
    12,470
    Location:
    By the Great Lakes
    Yup. A 650 that has the same heft as an 800, on a bike meant for dirt travel, is an idiot move.

    Another move that doesn't make sense is Suzuki's GW250 that weighs over 400lb curb. WTF!?!
    #66
  7. Maxacceleration

    Maxacceleration Off the grid

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2009
    Oddometer:
    3,721
    Location:
    Wa
    We could go on about senseless moves by some mfg's!
    At least in the consumers eyes.
    #67
  8. John Ashman

    John Ashman Adventurer Wannabe

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2008
    Oddometer:
    3,857
    Location:
    Viejo Mexico
    I got the sense that the 650cc BMW is its own engine, but could be wrong. Not sure why one would spend money on tooling to dumb down and engine, when it's going to cost just as much if not more to produce than an 800cc motor.

    Also, every time now that I get a Facebook announcement about a bike, I find a way to mention the XT700 or Tiger 530 or a Ducati Country Explorer or one of my other fantasy bikes. Facebook comments are probably the closest thing to feedback we can get but I think if they were getting 10 or more comments like that on a lot of their announcements, they'd take notice.
    #68
    larryboy likes this.
  9. tokyo

    tokyo Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2006
    Oddometer:
    332
    Location:
    Utah, Japan
    That sweet little 4-stroke, 80HP, 500cc parallel twin in the Yamaha Phazer snowmobile has to figure into the fantasy somewhere. The snowmobile weighs 480lbs with skis and tracks etc.. Seems you could whittle 100lbs off that in bike form pretty easy.

    That 80HP is all up top, so stroking it to 550 and bringing peak down to 65-ish HP to give it more bottom end would be appropriate. I kept thinking.. If only this motor came in a WR550R or XT550 or Tenere 550:clap
    #69
  10. John Ashman

    John Ashman Adventurer Wannabe

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2008
    Oddometer:
    3,857
    Location:
    Viejo Mexico
    Yes. The snowmobile and ATV industry is driving the development of all kinds of 4 stoke engines as 2 strokes are phased out that could be repackaged for motorcycle use. And it's odd, because these engines are powerful enough to slog around heavy machines, yet people think they're too small for a light motorcycle.

    Yamaha has a 3-cylinder 1049cc engine even. What a waste (except maybe right now)
    #70
    larryboy likes this.
  11. Stu

    Stu Buffo Maximus Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2004
    Oddometer:
    1,523
    Location:
    Eastern YahooLand
    John,

    Your original query about the upcoming new 600~900 c.c. bikes may have some manufacturers noting this development in the market. Manufacturers answer to stockholders, not customers, remember. Some smaller manufacturers will stick a new model in the mix and see what the reception is such as Ducati with their Scrambler. That bike at 375 lbs. dry is a candidate but it has serious flaws for an adventure bike (as noted in the Ducati Scrambler thread).

    If you start with a serious dirt bike, say the KTM 500 EXC, you are already at a $10K manufacturer's retail price point. Pull the engine out & stick in an 800c.c. twin (either V or parallel) based on the 400c.c. dirt engine and you will have a lot of R&D costs to recover. You are probably looking at $13K retail.

    If you put proper rims on the Ducati Scrambler (17 & 19"), a comprehensive skid plate, a larger plastic tank, a Shorai battery, an Akrapovic muffler and you would have a far more durable and usable bike that would now weigh about 360 +/- lbs. But this will cost the owner of the basic, red model a total of about $14K to get there.

    It would be less expensive to start with the new NC750X and do much the same to it but the weight would still be around 450 lbs. and it would have limited suspension. So what about the other less expensive option, modifying the VR-07 Yamaha? It looks to be a cross between the Scrambler and the Honda NC models. Again, an expensive conversion for DS riding.

    I've decided to just put the KTM 50mm lowering kit on my 500 EXC which I now have down to 260 lbs. with 2 gallons of gas in the 3.4 gallon tank. It is extraordinarily quick and capable at 65 mph on the highway, if busy. Install rubber footpeg inserts from the 1190/1290 models and put on the 5.3 gallon plastic tank and gear it up and go. Inexpensive mods compared to the above models and a good intrim choice until someone comes out with a better twin for our purposes.

    Stu
    #71
  12. John Ashman

    John Ashman Adventurer Wannabe

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2008
    Oddometer:
    3,857
    Location:
    Viejo Mexico
    I may just try to get a used dirt bike and a used sport tourer until good options show up too. If I could only buy ONE bike, I'd probably by a Scrambler Icon and get the wheels, suspension, etc, to make very good trail bike. But probably the former as it would cost to much to do necessary upgrades.

    One other option was to buy a CB500X and something like a CRF250L or something and try to swap parts so I end up with an XC type off roader and a supermoto. Meh. I just have to wait to see what my budget might be.
    #72
    larryboy likes this.
  13. Maxacceleration

    Maxacceleration Off the grid

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2009
    Oddometer:
    3,721
    Location:
    Wa
    Everybody's fantasy is different thats for sure.
    A thumper feels busy on the highway, as my 690 did (sold). Ya it was fast, but I would rather have the twin cylinder (and extra associated weight) for 70/30 road to dirt bias.
    if it was a 70/30 dirt to road bias the thumper would be ok, and better.
    The CB500X is a good start for a mid weight twin, and with available wheelsets soon it will make for a formidable 70/30 bike (road to dirt).
    No way I would do the west coast up & down on a thumper.
    The more cylinders you have, the smoother the motor.
    #73
  14. John Ashman

    John Ashman Adventurer Wannabe

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2008
    Oddometer:
    3,857
    Location:
    Viejo Mexico
    that's why I like the idea of the 530cc Triumph twin.

    One frame/engine with 3-5 variants.

    commuter/street ADV
    Long legged off road ADV
    shorter legged trail bike/scrambler
    naked bike/supermoto
    mini-Daytona

    But real differences, not just cosmetics like the Scrambler. Would be cool even to see a SSS variant on some or shaft variant or any number of different things. And it would be a big deal because.....while it's a small bike to us, a 530cc twin is like a 1200cc engine to Asia, South America, Africa, Eastern Europe.
    #74
    larryboy likes this.
  15. akalogan

    akalogan Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2014
    Oddometer:
    147
    Location:
    Walla Walla Washington
    That sums it up for me... It is like there are several bikes that almost have it, but not quit. The CB500x looks like a contender.But so does the KLR or GS650gs. The Versys is neat at best. I would love a Ducati Hyperstrada with Ducati of Bellevue's kit put on but that starts to get spendy... Hopefully there is some hope on the horizan at the next MC show.
    #75
  16. sonic reducer

    sonic reducer Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2007
    Oddometer:
    620
    Location:
    SeaTac WA
    all suzuki parts:

    gs500 engine-aircooled, 270* ptwin, bombproof, 6sp, 50 ish hp, e-start, decent stator output
    drz chassis-light enough, capable enough
    oil cooler
    no major component redesigns required, could replace the dr650

    probably just over the dr650 in weight but better suspended with more highway manners. would be comparable in durability, serviceability, etc.
    #76
  17. Stu

    Stu Buffo Maximus Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2004
    Oddometer:
    1,523
    Location:
    Eastern YahooLand
    I hate to be a party pooper but don't forget that any bike introduced here will require expensive certification tests that take a lot of time to get approved. I think this is one of the main reasons manufacturers are reluctant to introduce new models into the US. Think of the wildly enthusiastic reception of the KTM 350 Freeride. It never came here. There are lots of models I can think of that are unavailable here. If you want a twin dual sport you may be forced to build your own. You can thank your representatives who passed the laws allowing the bureaucrats to enforce them and make new models with potentially limited sales unavailable to us even though they could be imported from some other country.

    Stu
    #77
  18. John Ashman

    John Ashman Adventurer Wannabe

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2008
    Oddometer:
    3,857
    Location:
    Viejo Mexico
    True, but these bikes don't exist anywhere, there's nothing to import.

    But they will. If you look at the major manufacturers, they all want a piece of the growing higher-end (300-600cc) motorcycle market in Asia/South America.

    Further, many of these countries have brutal taxation on imported products, and want manufacturing in their countries. So to get market share, they must work with manufacturers in that area to produce products for that market. And that means mid-sized bikes, since they can't compete in the under 250cc market. For instance, Honda keeps alive the 25 year old NX4 Falcon for the South American market.

    So cracking the US market may be difficult at first until there's a measurable market, but the first part of the battle is getting product to exist!
    #78
    larryboy likes this.
  19. Maxacceleration

    Maxacceleration Off the grid

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2009
    Oddometer:
    3,721
    Location:
    Wa
    There have been no 500X bikes on dealers floors recently, so in checking one out at my local IMS show, I came away underwhelmed with the bike.
    Its just 'felt' like a price point bike, which it is I suppose.
    Light yes, but a rather small cockpit it seemed. The weight (or lack of it) is the main reason for my interest in this bike.
    I have to check it out some more before I decide to own and build up this bike.
    The search is continuing!
    #79
  20. Cruz

    Cruz Lost but laughing.

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2008
    Oddometer:
    14,942
    Location:
    Northside Brisbane, Qld Australia
    Ride it! :lol3
    #80