Favorite Premix Oil and Ratio

Discussion in '2 smokers' started by craydds, Mar 26, 2013.

  1. Valleyrider

    Valleyrider I Survived The '60s

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    You see here's the problem... I've never posted anything about "Autolubes being superior to proper pre-mix".
    Please don't accuse me of anything I haven't done!!!
    I would suggest that you review the title of this thread. It is about ones favorite premix oil and ratio..... Not autolube v. premix.
    The oil in question from the original poster. http://www.belray.com/bel-ray-mc-1-racing-full-synthetic-2t-engine-oil
  2. Mr. Carts

    Mr. Carts Been here awhile

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    I am sticking to the 20 to 1 that I have been using since I got my first Hodaka.

    I love leaving a blue smoke screen, it just pisses off the Greenies.
  3. anotherguy

    anotherguy Long timer

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    But don't you know someone from the UK says that's wrong?
  4. Twin-shocker

    Twin-shocker Long timer

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    Pre-mix bikes should be run on pre-mix oils. I doubt very much you could ride a YZ465 at anywhere near its full potential, so improved throttle response, and less need for service, are things which may be of greater value than the slight power increases that would result from using a full synthetic pre-mix only race oil at the correct mix ratio. (due to tree huggers I am not 100% certain, that 2T oils that dont contain low smoke additives are available in the US?).
  5. Twin-shocker

    Twin-shocker Long timer

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    All the information I have posted is 100% accurate, and I am still waiting for a troll to post something up which supports the idea that autolube oil, is to be preferred over full synthetic pre-mix only type, for specific use in pre-mix bikes................
  6. anotherguy

    anotherguy Long timer

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    Why is it when challenged you resort to cheezy insults? I knew you wouldn't risk being exposed. But there's a kicker Einstien. Due to the fact U4.4 is an oxygenated fuel it will likely produce more power at 40:1.

    If you'd actually paid attention the YZ is only 2nd oversize. In 33 years of heavy use I'd say that alone puts your theories (yes theories you've proved nothing other than your need for the last word) in question. I really am willing to put my own bike and time up to test your theories. Alas you're just a troll with no interest in truth.
  7. Valleyrider

    Valleyrider I Survived The '60s

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    What, nothing for me?? Did post #401 hit to close to home??? :lol3

    Quote:
    <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Twin-shocker [​IMG]
    The JASO test procedures are fact pure and simple, and I would suggest taking a careful look, before posting up anything more about autolube oils being superior to proper pre-mix only race oils.

    In regard to this thread on 2T lubrication, it seems to me those who shout loudest end up having whatever they have suggested taken as fact, even though this is far from being the case, and not one of the autolube trolls has been able to post up anything to support their curious claims.

    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
    You see here's the problem... I've never posted anything about "Autolubes being superior to proper pre-mix".
    Please don't accuse me of anything I haven't done!!!
    I would suggest that you review the title of this thread. It is about ones favorite premix oil and ratio..... Not autolube v. premix.
    The oil in question from the original poster. http://www.belray.com/bel-ray-mc-1-r...-2t-engine-oil
    <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->__________________
  8. Valleyrider

    Valleyrider I Survived The '60s

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    And there you go with the "Tree Hugger" crap again....
  9. slideways

    slideways España

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    Another interesting article on 2s jetting and oil ratios.

    Here is something to think about
    Spooge...
    Any of you that believe that spooge is caused by too much oil in the mix are flat out wrong. If you know how to jet, you can run any amount of oil you choose, and have absolutely zero spooge.

    Looks like it's time for a little pre-mix 101. I don't usually get into ratio discussions, because mix ratios are like religions to most people, and they tend to be closed-minded and hard-headed on the subject, but I'll put in my $.02 here anyway.

    There is a prevailing myth that less oil is better, and that the oil in the fuel is what lubricates the engine. And there is also a very common belief that spooge is caused by too much oil in the fuel mix. Both are wrong. The engine is lubricated by the residual oil that builds up in the crankcase. All the oil in the fuel does is replenish this oil. And spooge is caused by rich jetting.

    When an engine is jetted too rich, the excess fuel leeches heat from the combustion process, causing the combustion chamber temperatures to be too low to effectively burn the oil, or even completely burn all of the fuel. The result is spooge and deposits. The spooge is nothing more than unburned fuel and oil passing out the exhaust.

    If you have a spooge problem, you have a jetting problem. You don't get rid of the spooge by reducing the oil, you get rid of it by fixing the jetting. Correct jetting will produce an air/fuel ratio of about 14:1, which will produce combustion temperatures in the 1200 degree range. This will provide sufficient heat to consume the premix oil.

    You don't choose a mix ratio based on "spooge", you choose the ratio based on the amount of oil your engine needs to provide sufficient protection and adequate ring seal. The common misconception is that mix ratios are "one-size-fits-all", when in fact nothing could be frther from the truth.The amount of oil that is correct for one rider on his bike may not be enough oil for another rider/bike, or it may be too much oil. It all depends on engine displacement, riding style, and how hard you push the engine.

    The best way to determine if you are running enough oil is to check the level of the residual oil in the crankcase. If the ratio you run leaves enough residual oil in the crankcase to cover about 1/8" of the bottom of the crank wheels, then you are fine. If you don't have that much residual oil in your crankcase when you pull the top-end off, you aren't running enough oil for your riding style and conditions.

    With that said, to have that amount of residual oil in the crankcase at 50:1 (a ratio made popular by magazines and oil bottles), you can't be riding very hard, or your bike is jetted richer than necessary simply to deliver enough oil. I arrived at 26:1 for my bike with my riding style because that is the amount that gives me the proper amount of residual build-up. Small-bore engines require greater oil concentrations than larger engines to achieve the proper amount of residual build-up, because they rev higher and have higher intake velocities. Along the same lines, someone that pushes the engine harder, and keeps the revs higher, also needs to use higher oil concentrations to achieve the proper residual build-up.

    To understand why the residual oil is so important, you have to understand what happens to the oil in your fuel when it goes into the engine. While the oil is still suspended in the liquid gasoline, it can not lubricate anything. It has about as much lubricity at that point as straight gasoline. When the gasoline enters the engine, it evaporates, dropping the oil out of suspension. Now that the oil is free, it can lubricate the engine, but it must get to the parts to lubricate them. The way it gets to the bearings and onto the cylinder is by being thrown around by the spinning crankshaft, and being distributed through the engine by the air currents moving through the crankcase. The main bearings are lubed by some of this oil dripping down through tiny "drip passages" in the cases above the bearing pockets.

    People believe that the oil just rushes right through a two-stroke along with the fuel, but that just isn't so. It can take 90 minutes or more for the oil migration through a two-stroke to result in a complete oil exchange.

    The oil eventually makes it into the combustion chamber, where it is either burned, or passes out the exhaust. If the combustion chamber temps are too low, such as in an engine that is jetted too rich, the oil doesn't burn completely. Instead, some of it hardens into deposits in the combustion chamber, on the piston, and on the power valve assembly. The rest becomes the dreaded "spooge". The key to all of this working in harmony is to jet the bike lean enough to achieve a high enough combustion chamber temperature to burn the oil, but also still be able to supply enough oil to protect the engine. If you use enough oil, you can jet the bike at it's optimum without starving the engine of oil, and have excellent power, with minimal deposits and spooge. At 50:1, you simply can't jet very lean without risking a seized engine due to oil starvation.

    With the high oil concentrations that I use, I tend to get far more life from my cranks and rings than most of my friends that run leaner oil ratios. The high oil content also produces better ring sealing, so more of the combustion pressure is retained.

    One small point. No one ever broke an engine by using too much oil.

    Now we come to the issue of ring seal. Simply put, the rings alone can not effectively seal the cylinder. They also need oil to provide a complete seal against the bore surface. And up to a point, more oil will provide a better seal.

    I have run Dyno tests on this subject, as a school project in Tech School. We used a Dynojet dynamometer, and used a fresh, broken in top-end for each test. We used specially calibrated jets to ensure the fuel flow was identical with each different ratio, and warmed the engine at 3000 rpm for 3 minutes before each run. Our tests were performed in the rpm range of 2500 to 9000 rpm, with the power peak of our test bike (an '86 YZ 250) occuring at 8750 rpm. We tested at 76 degrees F, at 65% relative humidity. We started at 10:1, and went to 100:1. Our results showed that a two-stroke engine makes its best power at 18:1. Any more oil than that, and the engine ran poorly, because we didn't have any jets rich enough to compensate for that much oil in the fuel. The power loss from 18:1 to 32:1 was approximately 2 percent. The loss from 18:1 to 50:1 was nearly 9 percent. On a modern 250, that can be as much as 4 horsepower. The loss from 18:1 to 100:1 was nearly 18 percent. The reason for the difference in output is simple. More oil provides a better seal between the ring and the cylinder wall.

    Now, I realize that 18:1 is impractical unless you ride your engine all-out, keeping it pinned at all times. But running reasonable ratios no less than 32:1 will produce more power, and give your engine better protection, thus making it perform better for longer.
  10. Valleyrider

    Valleyrider I Survived The '60s

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    :lol3 That's funny!!! Had to start over several times, thought you were calling Twin stroker Spooge..... :lol3
  11. anotherguy

    anotherguy Long timer

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    Someone has been paying attention.
  12. Twin-shocker

    Twin-shocker Long timer

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    I dont regard anyone who doesnt have a clue as to the matter being discussed, as presenting any sort of "challenge". Whether a fuel is oxgenated or not, will make little difference to the fact a bike will run far better on a proper pre-mix oil, mixed at appropriate ratio for application.

    If you suggest you have used a bike hard on a regular basis for 33 years and are only on the second oversize, that seems to suggest either very gentle use, or confirm your troll status beyond any sort of doubt.
  13. Twin-shocker

    Twin-shocker Long timer

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    Its astonishing that stuff that seems to have originated in the 1970s, still seems to get taken seriously today, notwithstanding the very obvious advances in 2T lubricants, and engine design.

    I would agree though that for motors run at high load conditions on a dyno over extended periods of time, using 2 or 3 times the amount of oil required for normal usage, will certainly mean increases in power.

    For specific applications such as serious road racing (where oils such as Castrol XR77 are the norm) oil mix ratios will be varied to suit different tracks, with increased oil for longer straights and decreases for those with greater numbers of turns.

    All in all though, the best possible choice for any serious 2T pre-mix competition machine, is a proper pre-mix only oil, ideally without low smoke additives, and the added solvent content this entails (Castrol XR77 is easily available in no greenwash regions).

    For anyone who chooses not to actually ride their bikes, but to simply carry out dyno testing, using 2-3 times the amount of oil required, will provide increased power, but at the same time will mean less precise throttle response, and greatly increased need for frequent service.
  14. Twin-shocker

    Twin-shocker Long timer

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    Cut and pasting mumbo jumbo from the 70s hardly seems to suggest any idea of paying attention?
  15. stainlesscycle

    stainlesscycle Long timer

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    everytime you post something, i get this mental image of you.

    [​IMG]

    no matter how much cut and paste wizardry you attempt to perform, it will not change what real world racing shows. let me know which race team is running 100:1 pre-mix only oil, and i'll show you 20 that are using 32:1-50:1 'autolube ok' oil.
  16. slideways

    slideways España

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    Much better than you comparing a trials bike to an MX bike. Which is like comparing a golfcart to a F1 car.

    Why don't you start your own autolube thread and quit trolling your biased opinions with no factual evidence to back up anything you say elsewhere .

    The dyno tests were done on an 86 YZ 250. I don't know how that could have been done in the 70's. The results just confirmed what Jenning's test revealed in the 70's! You could run the same test on a 96 or a 2006 YZ 250 and the results will be the same.

    After doing some searches on XR77 it seems as if it has been discontinued,maybe your little genie in the bottle was not so magical after all.
  17. Twin-shocker

    Twin-shocker Long timer

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    I doubt very much that any serious racer is likely to compromise performance and engine life, by choosing to use autolube oil!

    This thread pretty much comes down to how very gullible users of 2T oils are when confronted with manufacturer advertising BS, which suggests autolube oil is the best possible thing to use in a pre-mix bike!

    In the US where greenwash determines to a large extent how things work in relation to anything with an IC motor, it seems very clear that reducing smoke is in the eyes of manufacturers far more important than increasing performance!

    This leads to a situation where low smoke autolube oils are promoted as being suitable for 2T race bikes, even though this is a long way from the truth.

    I guess the posts on here from those without much of a clue about the subject, are probably more indicative of just how effective advertising related to the autolube oils is, rather than any deliberate attempt at trolling or deception?
  18. Twin-shocker

    Twin-shocker Long timer

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    The 86 tests follow on pretty much from the earlier tests done by Jennings in the 70s, and as such are meaningless today, given the advances in 2T lubricants, and the almost universal use of alcohol bearing fuels.

    As I have stated numerous times in this thread oil mix ratio is directly related to heat being generated by the motor, and I cant see any reason an MX machine being used gently as a play bike, wouldnt be just fine on Castrol XR77 mixed at 100:1.


    Also outlined the primary reason for increasing oil in high heat engines, so appropriate mix ratio for an MX machine being used seriously, would be XR77 at 60:1 for over 250 bikes, and 50:1 for under 250.

    For anyone choosing to use autolube oils, (which contain up to 30% solvent), mix ratios must be increased over a proper race type full synthetic such as XR77.

    Finally as outlined in an earlier post, if you choose to run your bike on a dyno, rather than actually ride or race it, then using 2-3 times as much oil as really required, will certainly mean additional power. There are various reasons for this, but the main one has to do with the amount of heat being generated by a 2T motor, running at wide throttle openings for extended periods, with less than ideal cooling arrangements.
  19. stainlesscycle

    stainlesscycle Long timer

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    uh - you've just validated everyone else's opinion, and discredited everything you've said previously.

    WOT for extended periods with less than ideal cooling arrangements = racing.
    generate more power with more oil = the opposite of everything you've stated previously.


    but you're talking about dyno runs? generally the cooling on dyno runs is pretty darn good...probably better than actual racing. so you've invalidated the 100 posts you've made in one fell swoop. in fact, dyno fan cooling has got to better than any air cooled trials bike will ever see (not that we're talking about golf carts, errr, trials bikes anyways.)
  20. slideways

    slideways España

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    XR77 has been discontinued and has been for some time, whats left is dead stock and once its gone thats it as Castrol have no direct replacement.
    Obviously they did not see the need.
    Strange according to you it was the greatest thing since sliced bread.

    I can go to any local marina and by rec gas which has no ethanol in it.

    Or buy race fuel which has no ethanol.

    Or aviation fuel LL 100 which has no ethanol in it.

    I would never run any of my MX bikes on 100:1 mixture because I do not want to see an 18% drop in HP and I want to finish the moto without a seized motor.

    Troll shocker you keep back pedaling and contradicting yourself and have yet to provide a link or anything to back up the smoke you are blowing.

    XR77 is not KOOL Aid so you should stop drinking it.