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Fuel Pump Failure Warning

Discussion in 'Hard. Core. (1090/1190/1290)' started by Graniteone, Mar 18, 2016.

  1. Zuber

    Zuber Zoob Supporter

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    The pre-filter (tea bag) is often clogged, not the main (pleated) filter. Tough to put that anywhere except inside. The main filter would be easy, just pull it out and cut a new one in the hose. The NAPA Gold filters are good with a metal can, but cost upwards of $6.
    #41
  2. cookieGB

    cookieGB Been here awhile

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    Have many people had clogged filters in Europe, as I've not heard of it here. Neither of my 1190s have ever had the filter changed (7K and 10K), and i know of a few other owners who've never had an issue.
    #42
  3. 1Pete

    1Pete Adventurer

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    I have a 2017 KTM 500 EXC. after putting 300 miles on my bike I had it act like it was running out of fuel 20 minutes into a ride. It quit running and then completely shut down, no ignition, wouldn't turn the starter motor, nothing. Let it sit for about 15 minutes and everything came back on, ran fine for another 15 minutes and same thing happened. Does anyone know if the fuel pump overheating would shut the the bike completely down? No ignition or even instrument light? I've had it at the dealer for the last 4 days with no answers. They've got a call in to KTM for help. Won't here anything until next Tuesday. Reading this thread makes me feel more confident that it's a fuel pump and/or filter issue. I've heard about new tank residue clogging filters, can anyone verify that? Thanks for any help!
    #43
  4. Zuber

    Zuber Zoob Supporter

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    Sounds like you blew a fuse. Ask this in the Thumpers...
    #44
  5. wiseblood

    wiseblood Infections have Consequences Supporter

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    @Graniteone and all: I'm trying to track a similar problem on my 2014 1290 Superduke.

    A week ago, the bike had a couple incidence where it stalled while I was waiting at a red light. I would hit the starter, and it would fire back up.

    A couple days ago, it stalled at a red light, but WOULD NOT START! It would crank and crank and crank – but no spark.

    My first guess was the fuel pump. I disassembled it, and replaced the pump motor. SAME PROBLEM! It started, ran for a bit, then stalled and wouldn't start. :fpalm

    Next, I tried testing w/ the fuel filters OUT.

    upload_2018-6-9_8-15-23.png

    The filters didn't seem terrible, but I ordered a fresh set and new o-rings. (CJ Design – they arrive next week.)

    In the mean time, I removed the filters (pre-filter and main filter) and tested again. The bike seemed to run! I patted myself on the back, and planned on riding to work the next day.

    Next morning, everything seemed to be fine. But, on my way to work the bike stalled again and wouldn't start! :fpalm :bluduh

    Now, I'm alternating between scratching my head and banging it on the wall. :baldy

    Thoughts:
    • Could running without a filter for an hour have caused the fuel injectors to clog? Seems unlikely, but I put in some fuel injector cleaner to test.
    • Could it be related to HEAT? Maybe when the bike gets up to operating temp, something happens which causes the pump or injectors to stop working?
    Any suggestions would be appreciated!! I have a track day planned for next weekend, and I would loath to miss it because of this problem. :cry
    #45
  6. Broken&Lost

    Broken&Lost Been here awhile

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    That sounds like the problem I had when my rectifier failed. Put your filters back in, they’re there for reason. Then test the voltage at the battery with the engine running at tick over and around 3000rpm and let us know the readings.
    #46
  7. wiseblood

    wiseblood Infections have Consequences Supporter

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    Good grief!

    Ok, will do. Can’t until probably Tuesday because my fuel pump is in pieces waiting for parts.

    Track day scheduled for next weekend. FFS....
    #47
  8. wiseblood

    wiseblood Infections have Consequences Supporter

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    @Broken&Lost : Can you describe what happened to you? (Did you post a thread about it?)

    Fortunately, the voltage regulator/rectifier on the 1290 can be had for not much. I preemptively bought one on eBay for $30 which should (fingers crossed!!) get here by Thursday. Don't know if it's the problem, but, but in case..... Today is my last day to order anything which has a prayer of getting here in time for my track day weekend this Saturday & Sunday. :dirtdog
    #48
  9. wiseblood

    wiseblood Infections have Consequences Supporter

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    So.... What I've done, or am about to do to try to fix this:
    1. Replace fuel pump motor (Done)
    2. Remove charcoal canister (Done)
    3. Run injector cleaner through system
    4. Replace fuel filters & o-rings
    5. Replace air filter
    6. Replace voltage R/R
    7. Replace battery
    8. Try praying to more evil gods :evil

    Fuel filters & o-rings arrive today. Air filter too, hopefully.

    Battery & R/R should arrive Thursday.

    Any other suggestions or things I should try would be very much appreciated! Today is my last day to order anything which has a chance of arriving on time.

    Here's a picture of my cute-but-headless cat contemplating fresh rubber for the track:

    upload_2018-6-11_8-6-52.png

    :lol3
    #49
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  10. Broken&Lost

    Broken&Lost Been here awhile

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    The engine would die changing down gears when coming to a stop when I first started to notice a problem. Then it would start stalling as you pulled away. Most of the time the instruments would reset themselves too. Some times it would start up again on the button, other times you would need to switch off at the key and restart. Finally it killed the battery. I thought it was the battery so replaced but the problem persisted.
    I checked the voltage at the battery terminals and it was charging at 18V. I checked and cleaned all the earths and connectors between the generator and battery but it was still at 18v. I fitted a new regulator and it sat around 14v and no cutting out problems.

    When my fuel filter become blocked up it fine at lower revs but when you opened it up it would splutter, a bit like a misfire. Changed the filters and the problem was solved and the engine seemed more eager.
    #50
  11. Doktor

    Doktor Been here awhile Supporter

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    If you are hearing or seeing fuel boiling in your tank and having issues, most likely you're getting into a vapor lock problem. Vapor, unlike fuel, can be compressed and won't allow the pump to create any pressure. I would also think it will ruin a pump quickly since the pump depends on fuel for cooling.

    This was a big problem on the big engine hot rods back in the 60's and 70's. The fuel would boil right out of the carb and leave you stranded until it cooled off. I made an insulated "cool can" that I'd fill with water and isopropyl alcohol to bring down fuel temps before it hit the carb. If you're boiling fuel in the tank, you need to get the fuel temps down BEFORE you start throwing parts at it.
    #51
  12. wiseblood

    wiseblood Infections have Consequences Supporter

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    I saw no indication of fuel boiling. First thing I checked was opening the gas tank and listening for rushing air (in or out).

    That being said, I have been thinking about maybe making a heat shield to protect the underside of the tank and fuel hose a bit.
    #52
  13. wiseblood

    wiseblood Infections have Consequences Supporter

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    An update:

    With some trepidation, I believe my bike is working again.

    I replaced the filters and all the o-rings, and carefully reassembled the fuel pump. I took special care to install the o-rings without damaging them in any way. I also wrapped a fat zip-tie around the pump to firmly hold the metal tabs in the locked position. (The metal tabs which lock in the top/filter part of the pump.)

    I reinstalled everything. Started the bike. It ran! Then, in a few min, died again. :bluduh

    Two other things:
    1. I had purchased a fuel pressure gauge to actually see the pressure the pump was putting out. At this point, I connected it.
    2. I added some fuel injector cleaner to the gas, on the theory that they may have become clogged.

    I then restarted the bike. The fuel pressure gauge sprang immediately to about 60 psi, and stayed there, with very little (if any) deviation, and only a tiny bit of vibration. I let the motor run. Watched the gauge. It ran. And ran. And ran.... about 20 minutes at idle. Never stalled or stopped!

    That was Monday might. I rode to work Tuesday, and today. The bike did stall once, but it started right back up. Still, I don't know why it stalled, and that is bothering me. However, I have not had a problem since I rebuilt the pump and cleaned the injectors! :clap


    I have not done any of the following yet:
    • Replace air filter
    • Replace voltage R/R
    • Replace battery

    The air filter is a no-brainer. Assuming FedEx delivers it today or tomorrow, I'll install that.

    Battery isn't a bad idea. The current one was with the bike when I bought it (used). It's mystery meat, to me.

    The VRR may not be a problem.... Yet. @Broken&Lost: I have been monitoring the voltage with the on-board display. It varies in a healthy range – 14 to 14.1 volts. Any RPM. With the motor off, voltage of the battery is about 13 V – normal/healthy. I'll monitor it, of course!

    Thanks for the suggestions! :beer
    #53
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  14. wiseblood

    wiseblood Infections have Consequences Supporter

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    Uhhhh... NO. Bike was NOT working again. :bluduh

    That is, it wasn't working UNTIL I replaced the Voltage Regulator/Rectifier! Thanks @Broken&Lost !!

    upload_2018-7-6_10-25-51.png

    This stupid thing, which defies any reasonable ability to diagnose as "Failed", appears to be the source of my stalling problem.

    The symptoms, as follows:
    1. Bike starts when cold just fine
    2. After a few minutes of riding, when oil temp is ~150-175F, bike will stall and die at idle
    3. It will NOT restart. It will crank and crank and crank, but no spark
    4. If I let it cool down a little (5-20 minutes) it will eventually restart
    5. Once it is up to full temp and has been running a while, it appears to be fine.
    6. Alternatively, if I want to avoid the bike stalling in the first place, I can keep the engine RPMs about 2k when stopped. (Which makes me look like a biker d-bag, revving my engine in traffic. :lol3)
    If you search around, quite a number of people have had similar problems. Almost universally, everybody starts by rebuilding their fuel pump – the behavior has most of the signs of fuel starvation. Excerpt ONE!: There is no fuel starvation at speed. ONLY when trying to start! A fuel pump issue would result in unexpected bogging in the highway, too.

    FYI, the output voltage to the battery was a steady 14-14.1 on the dashboard. The only thing I can guess is that the ECU was being affected by the VRR briefly going haywire, and this wasn't appearing on the built-in voltage display.

    Hopefully this helps someone in the future!

    And, let me say again: I find it ENORMOUSLY frustrating that I have a motorcycle which I cannot fully diagnose on my own because I don't have a KTM dealer computer tool. This isn't a KTM-specific gripe: I'm sure all the modern bikes have this problem.

    As a guy who professionally makes computer software, my expectation :rolleyes is that the manufacturer is obligated to provide a FREE means for me to solve my own problem if I am willing to put in the time and effort. I realize that is a fantasy, and the automotive industry is 20-30 YEARS behind the current trends in customer service. They're still working with a "lock-in" model which pisses me off. </gripeoff!>
    #54
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  15. Broken&Lost

    Broken&Lost Been here awhile

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    I'd like to take credit but I only remembered my symptoms when mine failed and someone much wiser pointed me to the rectifier been the problem, luckily we have have these great forums to help us all out.
    Modern bike problem unfortunately rather than just KTM. On the plus side you've gained experience of pulling various components apart and rebuilding them without any screws left over.
    #55
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  16. wiseblood

    wiseblood Infections have Consequences Supporter

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    :lol3 :thumb

    At any rate, track day went mostly OK. Bike died right as the first session was starting, forcing me to jump on my "small" bike (450 EXC/sumo). But, after that it ran without a problem. :clap



    :thumb
    #56
  17. rick danger

    rick danger The further adventures of

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    I was probably listening to your bike. I can hear them at the track from my house in Davenport. :lol3
    #57
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  18. slartidbartfast

    slartidbartfast Life is for good friends and great adventures Supporter

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    What's actually happening when this failure occurs? The best theory is that the pump sucking hard on a clogged pre-filter/screen eventually starts to cavitate (low pressure causing fuel to flash into vapor "bubbles" inside the pump) which prevents any fuel flowing and might eventually damage the pump. When the fuel heats up, its vapor pressure increases, making it much easier for vapor bubbles to form. When the pump cavitates, the load on it actually drops and it will begin to spin faster, drawing less current. The ECU sees the sudden decrease in current and throws a fuel pump error.

    I did a little work on a similar phenomenon in dredging. When a 25,000 hp pump starts to cavitate, pumping efficiency drops and bad (expensive) things tend to happen. Any engineer working in the petrochemical industry will know all about pump efficiency curves and cavitation.

    ADDENDUM: This is all fine unless it's actually the reg/rec causing the problem. Aargh! ...Another worry-bead on the string. Should I start carrying a spare reg/rec on long trips? Is there a viable upgrade to eliminate that as a potential concern?
    #58
  19. grommets

    grommets Don't get hurt Supporter

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    I believe I have the fuel filter/pump issue. My 1290 SDR now has 31K miles on it. Has been running fine without any issues up to now. (Did have some casting defect in front wheel which caused rotor warpage but I fixed that with a file and many thousands of smooth braking miles followed. Otherwise, problem-free)

    Returning from Alaska to Kansas, I was in the mountains in southern Wyoming and northern Colorado. I had noticed the day before one time while passing a car, wide open in 6th gear, I got to about 120mph and it seemed to lose a bit of power. Kind of wrote it off as my imagination. Then yesterday in WY, I noticed that at any time I went over half throttle, 4th, 5th, or 6th gear, it would start to bog a bit. This got worse and worse until it would barely run with almost no throttle, then sputtered out completely. I waited a few minutes, tried to restart, and it came back to life. Rode onward, over a mountain pass, gradually the problem came back. At this point it would run with less than 1/4 throttle, then after 10 minutes or so die. Then starts right up, runs great for a bit, then falters again to stoppage. I think and think, and conclude it's a clogged vent line creating a vacuum lock in the tank, so I disconnect the vent at the lower left rear of the tank. That helped a bit, but only by delaying the decay to stoppage a bit longer. OK, I reason, maybe the vent line inside the tank (not sure how this is done in there) has come loose or stopped up inside, so I open the gas cap and just let it sit against the latch. Some improvement. Now I can ride slowly, barely using any throttle, but as soon as more than 1/4 is applied, bogging results and power is gone. I limp it over the mountain and most of the way down to Fort Collins, where fortunately, my wife, with car and bike trailer, met me. (She wanted to go to AK too, but does not ride, so we worked out a ride/drive/trailer arrangement that let me ride many of the very best of the roads between Kansas and Alaska) Bike back on the trailer and now home in the garage in Wichita.

    Reading through this thread, seems most likely my pump is failing. I'd say filters, but the repeated startups with good running for a while indicate that it's not a clogging problem, as that would result in consistent failure at all times. Note I have never cleaned the filters in 31K miles, (yes, I know, I should have done this. On the other hand I've looked in the tank with a flashlight and is seems very clean in there.) and I will change them out for new ones, but strongly suspect the pump at this point. I'll look into the replacement mentioned in this thread.

    If I have deduced amiss, please let me know. I'll report back with results on filter cleanliness, replacement, and pump replacement.
    #59
  20. slartidbartfast

    slartidbartfast Life is for good friends and great adventures Supporter

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    Your symptoms are EXACTLY like my 1290 exhibited.

    Your fuel pump is probably fine but you need to replace the intake screen and probably the filter too.
    #60
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