Fuell thread

Discussion in 'Electric Motorcycles' started by djroszina, Mar 6, 2019.

  1. djroszina

    djroszina Long timer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2006
    Oddometer:
    2,715
    Location:
    Midwest
    Heres another one to watch.


    00B22EB6-60DB-47E5-AED4-3DD52E8417BD.jpeg
    #1
    X-wing fighter and motowest like this.
  2. MJSfoto1956

    MJSfoto1956 Been here awhile

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Oddometer:
    476
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    #2
  3. ctromley

    ctromley Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2012
    Oddometer:
    989
    Location:
    PA
    No, there's a disc brake on the front wheel. Brake systems always require redundancy, so a single failure doesn't leave you without brakes. If the brave new world of EMs, that might be interpreted to mean you can have a disc front and regen only on the rear, but that would depend heavily on how the regulation is written - and how NHTSA decides to implement it.

    When I was working in aircraft instrumentation it was the beginning of the glass cockpit era (computer screens instead of the traditional round or rectangular indicators). FAA regs were not written for such new-fangled movies, they were written for God-fearing needles and dials and vertical colored bars. So a lot of time was spent negotiating with FAA reps on what was acceptable. The first examples were just computer-generated representations of the old round and rectangular indicators, and even those required back-and-forth discussions with the FAA rep. The first ones in always have the hardest time getting new tech to market.

    I wouldn't be surprised if the FMVSS regs won't allow regen-only rear braking yet and Fuell will have to add a rear brake disc. They could activate it with a lever on the left bar (likely if redundancy is the issue). Does anyone know of a linked system (one actuator operating both brakes) that has redundancy built in? I'm thinking that's what Fuell would need to do to retain one-lever braking.

    Eventually, I think the FMVSS will be re-written to allow regen-only to serve the redundancy requirement for braking - IF, and only if, it can brake hard enough to lock the rear wheel, to a full stop, regardless of regen user settings. Something like a throttle that rolls back like a normal throttle, starting from a clear detent at the zero point, but also rolls forward to initiate regen to whatever level you choose in real-time.

    The now-defunct Vectrix (big electric super-scooter) patented that idea. (Even though it's been used on forklift foot throttles and earlier electric motorcycles for decades - patent law makes no sense). But Vectrix is dead now, and the patent has probably expired anyway.
    #3
  4. MJSfoto1956

    MJSfoto1956 Been here awhile

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Oddometer:
    476
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    I meant brake handle. No second brake handle or foot brake either. Sorry.
    #4
  5. SteveAZ

    SteveAZ Long timer

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2002
    Oddometer:
    2,098
    Location:
    AZ
    Cars got one brake pedal so only one brake lever on a moto sure doesn't seem a stretch
    #5
    Roadscum likes this.
  6. MJSfoto1956

    MJSfoto1956 Been here awhile

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Oddometer:
    476
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    Never ridden a bike with just one brake lever/pedal (exception being my teenage, handmade minibike). But I agree -- in theory it should be just fine.
    #6
  7. ctromley

    ctromley Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2012
    Oddometer:
    989
    Location:
    PA
    In cars the redundancy begins in the master cylinder. No reason theoretically that couldn't be done on a motorcycle, but there are no existing motorcycles that do it that way. Brake parts are sourced outside, even by the majors. I doubt Fuell wants to start developing and manufacturing their own master cylinders. They have bigger fish to fry.

    Having said that, Buell did have special large diameter rotors made up for the rim-mount brakes on his HD-powered bikes. (I wonder how easy it is to replace one of those now?)

    Doing a car-like approach on a motorcycle is also a bigger challenge because there's a much more severe shift in cg during braking, so optimum brake balance moves all over the place. The only proper way to get around that is to use ABS. Does the Flow have it?
    #7
  8. liberpolly

    liberpolly Nu, shoyn, nudnick!

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2015
    Oddometer:
    4,911
    Location:
    Seattle
    I cannot imagine shipping a viable contender without. But you don't really need a separate ABS on a regen-only rear motor-wheel.
    #8
  9. ctromley

    ctromley Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2012
    Oddometer:
    989
    Location:
    PA
    How do you mean? ABS maintains wheel rotation just short of lockup at speed regardless of traction conditions. How do you replicate that function without ABS using a wheel motor?
    #9
  10. MJSfoto1956

    MJSfoto1956 Been here awhile

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Oddometer:
    476
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    Maybe that will be exclusive IP of Fuell? (might explain only a single brake handle)

    M
    #10
  11. liberpolly

    liberpolly Nu, shoyn, nudnick!

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2015
    Oddometer:
    4,911
    Location:
    Seattle
    ABS does it by pulsating (turning on and off) the braking pressure. In a regen- braking wheel motor, you can regulate back force to any degree, to have it is gradually reduced as the wheel is about to lock up, so there will be no pulsation.
    #11
    Roadscum likes this.
  12. ctromley

    ctromley Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2012
    Oddometer:
    989
    Location:
    PA
    Yes, but you still need speed sensing on both wheels and processing capability, using algorithms that are unique to this approach. And a controller that either interacts with this new, unusual system or just incorporates the whole shebang inside. Which means either building your own controller or closely collaborating with a controller manufacturer on a new platform that may have relatively low sales for awhile.

    Not to say this isn't possible. I've read from people smarter than me that TC is trivially easy to include in a controller, so this could be too. But no one (to my knowledge) has done TC in an EM controller yet, choosing off-the-shelf controllers and TC included in ABS. One has to wonder why. Maybe EMs aren't mainstream enough yet for the numbers to work out.
    #12
  13. liberpolly

    liberpolly Nu, shoyn, nudnick!

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2015
    Oddometer:
    4,911
    Location:
    Seattle
    Yeah, software is very expensive to design but free to manufacture, so the volumes of production are critical.
    #13
    Roadscum likes this.
  14. MJSfoto1956

    MJSfoto1956 Been here awhile

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Oddometer:
    476
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    You can place a $500 downpayment on a Fuell Flow today.
    $10,995 for 11kW vs. $11,995 for 35kW (which is a bargain IMHO).
    100% regenerative braking on the rear wheel.
    30 minute charge time!
    Delivery in late 2020.

    More info here: https://fuell.us/us/flow.html

    Screen Shot 2019-04-25 at 8.13.17 AM.png
    #14
  15. MJSfoto1956

    MJSfoto1956 Been here awhile

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Oddometer:
    476
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    these guys out of Taiwan seem to have a similar idea behind their hub-powered racer:

    #15
  16. ratdog

    ratdog Long timer

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2004
    Oddometer:
    2,155
    Location:
    Vail, CO
    Is it just me, or would the circular-F logo look better as "FYYFF"? ;-)
    #16
    discochris and wheresbaoskee like this.
  17. RockyMtnRoadRash

    RockyMtnRoadRash Useful and decorative

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2006
    Oddometer:
    807
    Location:
    SLC, UT
    Will legit buy this sticker.
    #17
  18. wheresbaoskee

    wheresbaoskee Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2017
    Oddometer:
    312
    Location:
    Perpendicular to Everything
    Is it weird that I kind of want a Fluid?

    [​IMG]
    #18
    MJSfoto1956 likes this.