Going from 245 to 265 suspension. Is it worth it?

Discussion in 'Crazy-Awesome almost Dakar racers (950/990cc)' started by Whodatschrome, May 15, 2019.

  1. Whodatschrome

    Whodatschrome Long timer

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    I've been internet searching for the past week about raising my 2006 950A S 245mm suspension up to 265mm. From what i've found, it's been about riders who want to go from a 210 up to a 265, and they have been pleased with it. But since my bike already has 245 on it, will i see much benefit going up only 20mm? My bike sees a true 50/50 on/offroad. The offroad riding/racing that i do is mostly 2 track and rocky high desert (whoops, G outs, drops, and a few jumps). I have heavier springs up front to match my weight, but i'm still wanting more out of the bike. I know it's possible to go higher, such as a 275 or 285, but since i'm only 6' tall, i don't think i'd want to go higher than a 256.
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  2. rinho

    rinho Rinho FĂ©roce

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    I did, less easy sometime (I'm 6'1) but still not enough many time (i destroyed a Weld86 and a AS Spec skid plate).
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  3. Rharr

    Rharr Been here awhile

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    this should help, and let you know the part needed.

    https://advrider.com/f/threads/gett...-a-adv-990r-2010.1025519/page-2#post-30132877

    the good news is you have the longer cartridge tubes so that saves about 300 bucks.

    Also i found the rear was much happier with the longer stroke in wash board. the shorter 245 stroke made the washboard more noticeable.

    I am 6' with a 34/36" inseam, and i find the 265 a touch tall when in slow technical stuff and you need to get a foot down. it's good practice for proper technique of trying to keep one foot on a peg, even when resting.. The extra length does help eat up the bumps when you are pushing it off road.

    are you running stock valving and spring @Whodatschrome?
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  4. Whodatschrome

    Whodatschrome Long timer

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    My suspension has been revalved, and i have heavier .58 springs up front (i weigh in at about 155lbs). I still have the stock rear spring, but with the preload backed all the way off, i still can't get enough race sag. I was either thinking about getting a lighter rate rear spring for my 245 suspension, or just bite the bullet and invest into 265 suspension, and hopefully be done with it. It looks like (looking at the Superplush website) parts, materials, and supplies could be close to $1500 just to get 20mm of more travel. I don't know if longer suspension will be $1500 more noticable?
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  5. Rharr

    Rharr Been here awhile

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    Look at the excel sheet i posted and cross ref the part numbers from your 245mm to a 265mm model, those will be the parts you need and can order from any parts dealer. I think i only paid 300 to 400 for the parts. The only difference between you and me was i already had the correct hydro stops, you will need to order new ones plus other parts plus springs. (long story short, the previous owner lowered my 265 to 245 and let the tuner keep a few parts..) The forks are pretty easy and can be done at home, the shock is a little tricky cause it is charged and needs a piston alignment tool. I suspect you can get it all done well under 1500 if you do most of it yourself.

    I am running 140n/mm in the rear and .60kg/mm in the front. I am about your weight 165 with out gear. .60kg.mm or .62kg/mm would be a good spring rate up front. At .60kg/mm i am using about 3/4 of my travel on normal and 100% on big hits, i think the .62kg/mm would push it closer to 2/3 travel at normal and give me a little more on big hits. one of the big tuner shops installed .64kg/mm fork springs and 16.3kg/mm on a buddies bike who is about 200lbs and has a 210mm suspension.

    Who did your valving?
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  6. Whodatschrome

    Whodatschrome Long timer

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    I have lightened my bike up just a smidge. No racks or crash bars, single disc front caliper, no passenger pegs, no centerstand (when racing).
    I don't have issues with doing the labor on the forks myself, but i would the rear. I ended up cranking in the front spring preload 5 turns so that it would balance out the fork race sag to the rear spring race sag. So pretty much the bike has too much preload on the springs both front and rear, but it's an equal about of too much.
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  7. Rharr

    Rharr Been here awhile

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    the good news is the rear is the cheapest, should be the cost of a tuner rebuild plus the shim and spring. Can even have a local guy do it if they are familiar with KTM stuff. Open up the shock, remove the damping pistons, remove the fat 245 shim slip in the thinner 265 shim, button back up, new oil, new nitrogen. add longer spring. done. If you can figure how to remove the spring you can pull everything apart yourself and then just take it to a shop to align the pistons, add oil and nitrogen.

    this video kind of shows what i am talking about, just think do the opposite of what he is talking about.

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  8. GoGoGavin41

    GoGoGavin41 Waves to Moto Cops (and they wave back)

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    I'd say if you're going to dish out $, go as tall as possible. I would think it'd be useful in riding like the D100. You get used to the height; I'm 5'9" after all! I should've let you ride my bike in NV.
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  9. Whodatschrome

    Whodatschrome Long timer

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    It's sooo tempting to go tall, especially since it looks like it doesn't cost that much more money to do. I just met a new friend a couple weeks ago who has either a 275 or 285 suspension (i can't remember) on his 990 (I think he's about your same height Gavin). We were talking suspension, and he was saying that his tall suspension is actually becoming a hinderance for him now because it's just too tall for him to dab his feet down. There's still a lot of places at the Desert 100 where you have to do some paddling with your feet. That place has lots of higher speed whoopy sections, but at the same time it also has some crazy muddy wet rocky hill climbs, a fair amount of first gear rock garden sections, and lots of G outs as well. It's pretty much all the worst (or best) type of terrains wrapped up into one. I'd be hesitant on going too much taller than a 245 out there, but i'm confident that i'd still be fine with a 265. I really think that if i went tallerthan that i'd be dumping my bike quite a bit more often.

    I think i might have actually swung my leg over your mighty steed while i was out there. I seem to recall that i needed some Gene Simmons style platform boots to reach the ground as well? That, and it was cold out that morning and i didn't want to ride your bike because it didn't have grip heaters or a cup holder to set my instant coffee in.

    What kind of suspension do you have, and how long is it?
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  10. Torque

    Torque Been here awhile

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    Guys I have raised my bike to 245mm Dakar model and can increase it to 265 with ease. Have the parts sitting right in front of me. I have hand fabricated a valving set up that can be hammered and I have difficulty bottoming it. I am getting air regularly, hitting deep g-outs etc. Nice on top but you almost have to hit a tree to feel the end of the stroke. So my point is, if dialed, 245 can be better than 99% of the 265s that are out there. Have a few 1090Rs with the same set up and only 210mm and they are abusing those bikes just like I do mine.
    On another note we have a group of 7 big bikes doing Utah BDR next week. Yes!
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  11. Whodatschrome

    Whodatschrome Long timer

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    Let me ask you this Torque...if the same suspension tuner did the same valving on a 245 as on a 265 (and I'm guessing you started out on a 210 on your bike, then went to a 245?), how much perceivable difference could, would, or should a rider notice with that extra 20mm? And since you have know idea how I ride Torque, let's say if it was you on your bike doing the type of riding that you just described?

    And as a side note, I'm under the impression that a suspension tuner's bike will usually (if not always) be better than a customers suspension, since they will actually be able to test ride the suspension on their own bike, then go back multiple times to tweak it until it's spot on?

    Utah BDR? That sounds like a blast! Have a fun time out there!
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  12. Torque

    Torque Been here awhile

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    Yes it was 210, now 245mm. Good question. I tested and rode one of the 1090Rs I mentioned so I have some seat time.
    Customer wanted it dialed so I took a 10 mile off road loop and re-valved it. Did it again and re-valved it and a third time. So that set up is dialed and on several bikes now. So to compare their bikes to mine the difference is mine is a bit plusher at the top of the stroke. I have to firm things up a bit to get high performance out of a shorter system. The thing about the big bikes is they are so heavy it is still plush.
    I think the only time the 210 would be a disadvantage is an extreme, sharp, high speed event. More than anything I start the compression damping earlier in the stroke rather than add more spring.
    Now all of the bikes have a custom spec variable rate rear spring installed to keep them from going too deep into the stroke and the front all I can say is that I am blessed to have the ability.
    Kreft is gaining traction with a new design for him. An adjustable mid valve, and for good reason, it works well.
    I have been building that design for 8 years now but have surpassed it by two or three phases.
    All that said, you said "same suspension tuner" so for the shim stack shuffle tuner I would say the shorter suspension would bottom harder and more often or they would have to add a lot of spring making it overly firm.
    I hope I am not coming across as arrogant because that is not my intent. I ride pretty hard for an old man and when I ride this new design I just cant stop smiling. Then I hear the others remarks on the Sena and that is rewarding.
    I am passionate and excited about my craft.
    I love my job!
    And I am going riding. Have the 990 on the rack and prep is in full swing! Life is good!!!
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  13. GoGoGavin41

    GoGoGavin41 Waves to Moto Cops (and they wave back)

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    It's Ohlins 277.

    I will say, when riding more technical stuff (which unfortunately I haven't done much of on this bike yet) deviations in balance that would've been saves on the old 210 I typically just drop the bike and step over it on the 277. Tall knobbies don't help the issue, but these bikes are pretty tough even without crash bars on them.

    For the fast stuff mine is great, I'd even consider going to 300 if I had more time to race it out west.
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  14. gearheadE30

    gearheadE30 @LC8Adventures

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    When I went from 210 to 265, this was definitely the result. Don't bother saving it; just jump off and then pick it up.

    Is the extra 20mm worth it? If you're in there anyway and the expense is minimal, I would say yes. You can always run less preload or softer springs to pull it back down a little. I have found that, on the big bikes, the conventional rules of "race sag" are pretty flexible to get to the right setup. Another reason to go for it is that these bikes really benefit from dropping the swingarm down as much as possible. Like @Rharr said, this really helps keep that back wheel on the ground, and amplifies the effect of added traction when putting power down due to the reaction moment of pushing power through the chain.
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  15. Torque

    Torque Been here awhile

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    Good info. Also a large Xover early in the rebound circuit is a noticeable increase in traction.
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  16. Whodatschrome

    Whodatschrome Long timer

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    you're not
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  17. Whodatschrome

    Whodatschrome Long timer

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    I guess everyone will have a different interpretation of a minimal expense, but I don't foresee is being minimal.

    I had the same thought about pulling the bike preload back down. Since my 245 suspension's preload is fairly high right now, my seat height on a longer 265 suspension with an optimal sag might not be too much higher than what I currently have.

    I have no idea what that means when you said "dropping the swingarm down as much as possible". Can you elaborate some please?

    When I first got my 245 suspension back from the tuner, I couldn't tell whatsoever that anything was any different from my stock suspension (except that it was stiffer in the front because I went with heavier .58 springs). It went in for a second time, and was told that the mid valve was firmed up quite a bit. The bike now resists bottoming in the front fairly well, but it seems to have an almost scary amount of rebound.
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  18. 2 SPOT

    2 SPOT bring the rape whistle

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    he's talking the rear wheel having long travel so it can "droop" while unloading and stay in contact with the ground.

    think back to the 640a, 10" front and 13" rear travel.
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  19. Torque

    Torque Been here awhile

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    .58 is very light. You need more spring. Then reduce the pre-load and ahh, the ride will become more comfortable, forgiving, and safe, even without valving changes.
    .58 might be light with no rider.
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  20. Whodatschrome

    Whodatschrome Long timer

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    So do you have the full Ohlins suspension both front and rear, or their kit that modifies the stock rear shock?
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