Going from 245 to 265 suspension. Is it worth it?

Discussion in 'Dakar champion (950/990)' started by Whodatschrome, May 15, 2019.

  1. gearheadE30

    gearheadE30 @LC8Adventures Supporter

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    I read the first post and saw you are already at 245mm, so yeah - not minimal. I was thinking going from 210 to 245 or 265.

    Droop is part of it, but I was talking more the physics of chain tension and traction. I will put together a few crude paint diagrams or something when I get off work to explain this; it's a kind of cool quirk of bike design.

    Scary amount of rebound isn't good. Too much rebound (packing down), or too little (pogo stick/trials bike fork feeling)?

    I seem to remember whodatschrome being a pretty light guy. .58 may not be out of line, and there are some real benefits to controlling the suspension with the damping and softer springs if you can get the basic sag set correctly.
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  2. Whodatschrome

    Whodatschrome Long timer

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    The bike likes to pogo. It's quite noticeable on large G outs and drops. Or maybe it's just the nature of the beast (being that we're on 500lb bikes)?


    And yes Jordan, i pretty much have the same physique as you, but I'm just shorter. My specs are 6' 155lbs.
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  3. Rharr

    Rharr Been here awhile

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    Pogo? i haven't noticed that on mine, pogo should not happen with correct rebound damping and suitable oil wt. I noticed front dive when the front brake was stabbed. I have since fixed that by going from .50 to .60 springs and stiffing up the compression shim stack.
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  4. Torque

    Torque Been here awhile

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    I run .68s 185lbs 11mm pre-load with lots of damping from the very beginning of the stroke. Can bottom it but I really have to try.
    1090R 155 lb rider is running .64s We had .65s but did the same damping control system and reduced it back to .64
    He also can bottom it but has to be pushing pretty darn hard. Flat jumps are plush without bottoming it is when you hit a high speed sharp hit that will get it their. Pretty amazing on a 500lb bike.
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  5. Whodatschrome

    Whodatschrome Long timer

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    After using the .58s for about a year, I discussed stepping up to .60s or possibly .62s with the suspension guy i was using, and he agreed with me. Strange thing is when i got my forks back from him the again, i still had .58s in them. He said that he decided to just firm up the mid valving quite a bit. With the .58s in there now, it does resist bottoming farily well. Every once in a while when i case a whoop it might bottom out, so i really don't have any complaints about bottoming out issues.

    I'm pretty sure in real life that my 950A is lighter weight than the average 1090R, but i don't know by how much, and i don't know how much of a different spring rate a heavier bike would require.

    Torque, what's the benefit of having lots of damping from the very begining of the stroke when compared to when the damping is further down the stroke? Would that also make riding through super slow rock garden sections more jarring?
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  6. Torque

    Torque Been here awhile

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    The big bikes need the damping from the start as they are so heavy they can push the oil with authority. I am adamant about reasonable pre-load though. The bikes I mentioned are great in the single track. The forks need to be held up in the stroke with all that weight. High in the stroke with light pre-load is good and compliant and tons of bottoming resistance all in the same fork.
    When I speak about immediate damping I am not referring to closing the float as they say but I am initiating immediate damping. I do a completely different design so even the shim stacks are not comparable, but I have to keep it close to my vest.
    Look at a couple of Throttle-jockey's videos or comments. He is the 155lb rider on the 1090R. Or PM him, He will hold nothing back. Straight shooter although somewhat brash :)
    My 990 weighs 460lb with bout 1/3 tank of fuel but the spring rates are same or one rate higher when dialing the 1090R. That is with good damping characteristics installed on the 1090.
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  7. gearheadE30

    gearheadE30 @LC8Adventures Supporter

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  8. Torque

    Torque Been here awhile

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    Also covered in Tony Foales book. In fact I have to read that book again as each time I do, I learn something.
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  9. 2 SPOT

    2 SPOT bring the rape whistle

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    sitting on my coffee table all the time and i pic it up alot to re-read parts.
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  10. Whodatschrome

    Whodatschrome Long timer

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    With your new found fame as an international rally racing star, maybe you could find time between your book signing and autograph session at the YSR this year, you could find some time to explain that to me in a more remedial way.
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  11. gearheadE30

    gearheadE30 @LC8Adventures Supporter

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    Maybe once my embarrassment fades a bit :hide I probably won't have time before I leave for YSR but have added it to my list. Can probably put something together late next week once I'm back.
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  12. Whodatschrome

    Whodatschrome Long timer

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    I meant verbally face to face at the non-event...
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  13. Parx400

    Parx400 Long timer Supporter

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    I went from 265 Down to 245. Unless you are hitting massive G outs at max speed the extra 20mm is not going to help you any. I have long legs and like having a tall seat. With my good seat and 265 the bike was wayyy tall. Sure i could ride it fine but if I relaxed around town I would tip over at random places.

    Proper valving and springs with 245mm is perfect for me. I could see going from 210 to 245 being worth the money.
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  14. Whodatschrome

    Whodatschrome Long timer

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    I was hitting some pretty deep G outs at the past two races i was at. And since it was an actual race, i wasn't dawdling around. I was wishing for more travel, but i don't know if only 20mm will be that noticable. At the same time, i don't want sky high suspension, because i will still want to touch the ground with my foot. I've sat on a 265mm 990R before, and my leg length felt fine while sitting on it. I dished the seat foam out a little bit (i'm going to guess 20mm?) on my '06 950S, so it's a little bit lower (more manageable on the single track). Raising my bike to 265mm will probably put my current dished out seat to a standard 245mm height.
    #34
  15. gearheadE30

    gearheadE30 @LC8Adventures Supporter

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    Oh, I didn't know you were going! All packed up and ready to start driving tomorrow... I will see you out there then!
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  16. Parx400

    Parx400 Long timer Supporter

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    If you do go to 265 I have a extra side stand laying around for that height. It even works with 245 if you have stiffer springs installed. Does not work though with 245 and a CJ side stand relocation bracket.
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  17. Sumi

    Sumi Long timer

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    I have had all three type bikes. 210, 245 and 265. I'd say 265 was the sexiest, but 245 was the best on/off road compromise. I'm 6"1

    I was also racing with the 265 and while I've never bottomed it out (but bottoming out is not only because of suspension travel, but also because of an improperly dialed in suspension IMO - it's amazing what you can achieve by turning the screws on these, not to mention different springs or a revalve job), but offroad I've fall a ton of times just because I was on a slight slope / in a hole and my feet didn't reach the ground. I first went from 210 to 265, so it was quite a learning curve to get used to tiping over all the time. Onroad it's obviously worse than the lower ones, the wind somehow goes more beneath the bike and makes the bike feel less planted.

    So that's why I'm saying the 245 is a good compromise. It's not that bad onroad as the 265, and if dialed in properly it's almost as capable (95%) as the 265 off road.

    Then ofcourse the type of offroad also makes a huge difference. Where the 265 shines really, at least for me, is when you dial it in supersoft and ride fast, straight, light tracks (desert). I can imagine a 320 would be even better for that stuff (thinking of Dakar). But for slow or technical stuff IMO it doesn't have a great advantage over the 245 - if not worse.

    But that's just my $0.02, everyone is different, everyone likes different stuff, and everyone rides different type of terrain and in a different riding style. I'd choose the 265, but mainly beause of the looks and cool factor, not because it's the best to ride everywhere of the three.
    #37
  18. Ferd

    Ferd been around

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    Hey man,
    I'm 145 lbs on a 2006 950S and running 70 springs. Was on 58s at first. Then went to 64, and now at 70. And the 70 is Rad. I can air it out and still not really hit bottom. Even with some gas in the tanks.. before you go to the tall stuff you might give the springs a try.
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  19. nk14zp

    nk14zp Long timer

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    I got my 06 950A because after I priced a good susp for my klr it seemed like it made more sense to buy it. Before I picked it up I started asking about raising it as I'm 2m tall. A Lot of the riding here is slow technical stuff. I am glad it sits as low as it does now. I can't imagine how hard it might be if it was higher. I did go with 64 or 67 springs in front. Also I suck off road.
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  20. Whodatschrome

    Whodatschrome Long timer

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    An update because we all know how much we dislike reading open ended threads...

    I got recommend to take my suspension to Suspension 101 (aka @Torque) from another inmate here who is both a very good adventure bike rider and racer. He told me that there are more that a few adventure bike riders who are currently having VERY good results with his suspension tuning.

    I had a few conversations with @Torque (Suspension 101) about what he thought of my suspension issues, and then decided to pull the plug and I shipped my suspension down to him. His turnaround time was super fast! I was kinda thinking about riding my 950 at the LAB2V ride this thanksgiving weekend if my suspension would be done in time and it was. Turned out I had to bring my 950 down to Palmdale without suspension, and one of my friends brought up my parts from Suspension 101’s shop! Anyhow I ended up installing the suspension in the Embassy suites parking lot...in the snow storm.

    I had Suspension 101 raise it up from a 245mm to a 265mm (went to heavier .64 springs in front, and a progressive rear spring). The extra height wasn’t an issue for me in the rocky desert terrain I was in. And as for the new ride?...is was completely different than what it was. The previous tuner that worked on it actually made the suspension worse than stock, and was dangerous to ride aggressively. It’s now F-BOMB amazing. I now have to completely change how I ride the bike now. It used to be that I would have to slow down when coming up to G outs, washes, whoops, and drops. I would have to drop a gear, slip the clutch, sit way back in the seat, and pull hard up on the bars. Now it’s grabbing a gear, sit back in the seat, and giv’r gas!!! The bike was now gobbling up everything I could throw at it! I had the opportunity to chase around quite a few ktm 500’s this weekend. With my new suspension, i got to dice it up with quite a few of them. I was laughing out loud in my helmet how much fun my bike now handled! Another bonus was that my wrists didn’t require Advil at the end of both days (about 450 miles of riding in 2 day’s).

    The absolute only downside is that since I can charge the whoops so much harder now, is that my carbs get flooded after about 4 consecutive whoops, and the bike stalls out. I’ve heard that there isn’t really any cure for that, so I might have to either go after a fuel injection 990, or convert my 950 over to Fi. I also need to get a longer sidestand because my existing 245 stand (that has been smashed in by rocks), now leans WAY over.

    So if you guys are looking for a suspension tuner, I highly recommend Suspension 101!

    Thank you George!!!
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