GPX TSE250R 2T Enduro

Discussion in 'Thumpers' started by Navin, Dec 3, 2017.

  1. snowjob

    snowjob Thinking about bikes....

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    A little more looking at the DT230 engine shows some interesting details.

    https://djebel-club.ru/_ld/0/DT230_service_manual.pdf
    • Oil pump - instead of premix
    • Electric start
    • Same gear ratios, bore, stroke, etc (seems to be a full on copy)
    • Electric power valve
    • Intake enters crank, not cylinder
    • Balancer weight
    • CDI that adjusts for wheel spin?
    As I have only owned a few smokers, I don't know if these items are unique, but they are definitely interesting/different than what I have had.
  2. malignity

    malignity Wonton

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    There was a comment somewhere on the planet that I can't readily find (I admit, I'm not looking because I'm driving home but recall reading it) that mentioned a CDI that had two modes that could be switched on the fly. Adventure mode and trail mode. It was for the DT230.

    I don't want a CDI that adjusts to wheel spin. The whole reason I want a 2 stroke is because I need moar wheelspin.
    shinyribs and Navin like this.
  3. malignity

    malignity Wonton

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    If the Pitster has a CDI that adjusts for wheel spin I'm still gonna get it though. Just saying. I guess that's kinda cool. Unique. Lol
    Navin likes this.
  4. malignity

    malignity Wonton

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    If this takes off and sells well, I wouldn't be surprised if Gary doesn't throw in a 300 contender. Consider that, lads and lasses.

    Don't cut down anything until we have a review or three. We all did that with the LXR 250f and we all ate crow because of it. Numbers only get you so far in life. Butt time paints a thousand words.
    CDN Rick likes this.
  5. bark sampler

    bark sampler Been here awhile

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    Totally agre, well said.

    I was all set to buy new this fall. Sold my KTM 2-stroke, getting ready to move a couple more. But as I’m shopping around and riding some of my old stuff, I can no longer justify it. First for the amount of cash. Secondly I’m so aggravated by the elitism that you aren’t shit if you don’t have a brand new KTM (orange or white) with 4K of crap on it and 2k of suspension tuning and matching gear with a carbon helmet. Nice kit, but not necessary.

    So I went old school and started building an old ATK 250 from ground up for next year enduros and trail riding. Huge amount of hours before it will be ready, and it’ll still be old tech. Ironically also TMX carbed and counterbalanced motor.

    Then the Pitster bikes showed up thanks to Navin. Kinda changed my whole perspective. I’ll finish my project, but sooo tempted to pull the trigger on one of these or an LXR. Half for the value, half as a big middle finger to the guys on $14k bikes that think anyone on something less isn’t a real rider.
    MBRIDER, Dauer, massholejim and 5 others like this.
  6. malignity

    malignity Wonton

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    And when you win your first Enduro on it, you're going to turn some heads.

    Just ask AJP.
    CDN Rick, Dirtleg and Navin like this.
  7. malignity

    malignity Wonton

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    The problem we have is that KTM set a "new high ground breaking standard", and year after year, raised that new high standard, and systematically bought out and stopped production of all it's competitors.

    By creating a monopoly, they could continue to raise prices. By continuing to raise their standards, they shut down Yamaha from competition, and made it harder (but not impossible) for others to enter the extremely competitive but largely one company market.

    You set a standard and expect it not to get touched.

    What they fail to realize in the two stroke market, is in the basic design of a two stroke, you can go up, but you can only go up so far before you level off, and when you're largely only competing with yourself, the sense of urgency isn't there.

    Thennnnn... Enter
    Beta.
    Gas Gas.
    Pitster.
    TM(?)

    Husagren needs to step up to the plate.

    The more competitors we have the more we make the top dog re-evaluate. This could drive TPI into mass production to stay ahead, or simply cause a drop in price.

    For the rest of us who don't need everything cutting edge technology with prices to match and want to be steps ahead of the Japanese, this seems to be our victory.

    And with some luck, Pitster may have thrown in the aggressive porting of the WR200 into the DT230 and made this thing a beast. The engines are almost identical, so I'm sure it could work.

    Plus I think the IFDE Navin Edition comes with an FMF Fatty pipe for better over revs.
    Dirtleg, bark sampler, 10K and 2 others like this.
  8. nuggets

    nuggets It's all my fault...

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    Gotta admit, I'm a bit jealous of this International Five Days Navin Edition. Gonna have to make me an International Four Days Nuggets Edition XTR.... :lol3
  9. N8

    N8 Masked pumpkin rider Supporter

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    Did I miss something or are YFF's slackin'? @Pitster posted these over in the vendor section since he got his dick slapped. Why aren't they posted here yet?

    Attached Files:

  10. malignity

    malignity Wonton

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    They were here. Then they weren't. Now they're here. Again.
  11. malignity

    malignity Wonton

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    As I think about my last monologue, it makes me think there's a pinnacle of four stroke mastery too that KTM seems to one up itself year after year.

    When you're paying a premium for R&D on a new engine every few years and you're already ahead, it's almost like you're just making a job for yourself and justifying your high costs because you unnessarily changed something and deserve a cookie for it. Look at Beta this year. Zero engine changes, but 6.6kg or something in weight loss. Pretty significant.

    I've never once heard anyone on this planet saying the RFS engines were not powerful enough, not fast enough, or not light enough. All 3 of those engines could EASILY compete with anything on the market today simply by updating a chassis and giving it EFI. Yet we reinvented the wheel in 2008, 2012, and now 2018.

    We've now gone through 3 generations of KTM since then and 3 big R&D changes. Why? Your engine was fine. You don't have to reinvent the wheel, and by doing so you're only justifying your unnessarily high prices. You're fixing what's not broken, or putting on a whole new roof because you lost a few shingles rather than focusing on what's important.

    You could have kept your prices low and simply replaced the shingles. We get it KTM, you want to be leaders of innovation. Eventually though that bad business practice might come back to bite ya...

    PS, on behalf of the new competitors like us Pitster fans, thanks for the not broken chassis and not broken engine designs. ;)
  12. cedric

    cedric Been here awhile

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    Have you actually ridden one of the new ktm 4Ts? The RFS was a nice bike and all, but the new stuff is lighter, more powerful and more reliable. No comparison in my book.
    RideFreak, andrewgore and davesupreme like this.
  13. malignity

    malignity Wonton

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    Yes I have. You always get more power with EFI. You always get a lighter feeling with an updated chassis design. Reliability of the RFS compared to now is completely unchanged. The KTM of today is not any more reliable than the RFS. Its proven itself for hundreds of TAT trips. I can't say the same for 2008-2011, but I'm comparing the RFS.

    If you look at the weights of the 2007 KTM and the Beta of 2017, they're within pounds of each other. You're telling me the only way to shed weight is to completely redesign an engine?

    If you took the 450 RFS engine and gave it EFI and put it in the 2018 chassis, I'd bet a fiver that you're not going to feel much difference if any at all on your butt dyno between it and the 2018 KTM 450 EXC.

    And even if you did, unless you're Johnny Walker, you're not going to be able to ride either to the point to where it makes a lick of difference.
  14. Fallacy

    Fallacy FFE inc. Supporter

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    The Beta’s have many significant changes for 2018.
  15. malignity

    malignity Wonton

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    To the chassis, and reliability updates on their 4 strokes. The chassis change cut the weight. They cut out the kick starter on their 4t. Other than that, minor. Point missed.
  16. timeOday

    timeOday Long timer

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    Are you sure that isn't just in your head? People who I actually speak with are almost always nice.

    I've been riding progressively more expensive bikes, partly due to too much websurfing, partly due to realizing I am going to get old way too soon, but there are lots of kids on old yamahas at the sandlot who can outride me and I know it.
  17. malignity

    malignity Wonton

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    What you essentially have right now is a market where KTM is CHANGE EVERYTHING EVERY FEW YEARS AND CHARGE FOR IT! verses BOLD NEW GRAPHICS! and absolutely zero middle ground until recently.

    You can achieve greatness without changing everything every few years and charging $12,000 for a brand new motorcycle. Beta stayed in the competition this year by developing a lighter chassis, increasing reliability and removing their kick starters on their 4 strokes and shaved 8.7lbs doing it. I've got the beta page referenced right next to me now.

    They took the middle ground and their prices didn't go up. When you take the middle ground you still can compete. Even with yourself, and even when you're the top dog.
  18. cedric

    cedric Been here awhile

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    Then don't buy a ktm dude....
    Yinzer Moto likes this.
  19. Fallacy

    Fallacy FFE inc. Supporter

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    Or a Beta
  20. malignity

    malignity Wonton

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    It's funny, I recall Navin mentioning that the LXR 250F was what the XR250 would have been if it continued development for another 20 years.

    It makes me wonder what the actual XR250 would have been after 20 years provided it didn't stop and R&D kept going on it.

    Would it be the air cooled bike today still? Probably not, but who knows. Could they or would they have found significant performance upgrades without reinventing the wheel? Maybe. Maybe that little bike could have bumped the compression another 30 PSI and still be reliable for all we know.

    What we DO know though and what we are seeing is essentially exactly that when it comes to this Pitster 2 stroke. We've got a 20 year old engine that was "good enough" to go under review and receive changes that will make it likely a damn good competitor today.

    I guess if you're KTM, you're not interested in that. If you're the rest of the world though and those changes can make a feasible bike that can comlete with the top dog, it really makes you wonder why they're blowing all that R&D and you're paying such a high premium.

    If we eliminate KTM from the equation and compare this to the 2018 Beta Xtrainer 250, say they make identical power, have identical suspension, and the Beta is $2000 more. There comes a time when you have to ask yourself is the $2000 extra worth having an adjustable powervalve?

    I know I could certainly spend $2000 on other things.
    Pitster likes this.