Well Michnus I never knew you were that violent when you stuck your finger up your arse. Hmmm, glad I dont do that........ On that note, I will speak for my mate Leon who did the red route on the ADV. He reckons that a lot of people shouldnt have done the 3rd day with the skillz they had. He and a few others I know had to help a lot of people through some difficult parts, and I can just imagine. I know what hes talking about. Its not the big bike thats the problem, its the overconfidence of some coupled with lack of skill. Explosive combination waiting to happen. Remember that whole route was researched, prepped and plotted by Jan and others, on ADV's. So there you go.