H2W Jetting Matrix

Discussion in 'Dakar champion (950/990)' started by Head2Wind, Oct 9, 2007.

  1. ADVJake

    ADVJake ***** dweller

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2004
    Oddometer:
    4,341
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    I hit reserve at 130 miles today. and i wasnt even riding hard...
    I use to get 215 miles to reserve before i put on the remus pipes, prefilter & 16t.

    Time for a rejet... Im going to try and source jets locally, since head2wind can't ship internationally yet.
    #21
  2. K2m

    K2m Long timer

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2005
    Oddometer:
    2,253
    Location:
    Sydney
    I should tel you guys about the one of first job's that I did to my bike. I got some builders foam, sort of tar impregnated foam (Compriband), and packed it between the front of the air box and the frame. This was to seal out the hot air from the inlet. Hot air is less dense and so is similar to reducing your engine size. So sucking hot radiator air is like riding an 850. I also added a nylon plate next to the ignition module to create a still air effect for the pre filter.

    [​IMG][/IMG]
    #22
  3. K2m

    K2m Long timer

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2005
    Oddometer:
    2,253
    Location:
    Sydney
    I was in measuring up for the FCR's on the weekend an checked my IMS and found it to be 2.35 on the front and 2.25 on the rear. Sorry for the miss information regarding 2 turns. I have adjusted the Matrix........
    #23
  4. K2m

    K2m Long timer

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2005
    Oddometer:
    2,253
    Location:
    Sydney
    Mike Hone's (The one sitting next to Peter Brock when he died) in Melbourne is a good place to start. The pilot is a 78 series jet. They are a Factory pro dealer....... Good luck Mate!

    http://www.mickhone.com.au/

    That prefilter rich-ens it up considerably.
    #24
  5. Flanny

    Flanny Flanny-it-up!

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2003
    Oddometer:
    2,739
    Location:
    Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, the World, the Universe

    Hey Rory!

    I thought your clip was in position #2 with the 45 Pilot Fuel jet. The Matrix says pos. #3. Seems unlikely that you are running a 45 Pilot with 2.35 turns on IMS with 3rd clip.

    Please let me know.

    I've uploaded my latest settings. Can't say I'm truly happy with the result. Very hard to tune the idle circuit with the DNA and Pre-Filter....Someone have a look at my settings and comments and let me know what you think.

    Seems to me the lower half of the idle circuit (ie: off idle to 1/8) is fine, but then under load from 1/8 - 1/4 throttle seems aneamic and lumpy - like it's too lean...however, it's hard to start when hot, and seems to run way better now that it;s cold out, which would indicate that was actually too rich...Impossible to tell without propoer analysis tools.
    #25
  6. cpmodem

    cpmodem Orange Caveman

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2004
    Oddometer:
    7,130
    Location:
    masa yee yah tee 59° 14' 9" N / 135° 26' 42" W
    Are you really running the needles on the 2nd clip? If so, that may be your problem. Also, your IMS of .75 is awful lean for the other settings you've got.
    #26
  7. K2m

    K2m Long timer

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2005
    Oddometer:
    2,253
    Location:
    Sydney
    Set-up:
    No Sommers Door, plugged sides of airbox and drain line.
    Drilled slides
    140/142 mains
    45 pilots
    2.25 turns out on the IMS
    #3 clip on the needles, this is with the stock thin shim below it
    Stock + Uni pre-filter
    40/80/100 jets
    Float levels @ 3mm
    FMF Q Pipes

    Testing conditions: 58 F, 68% Humidity, 1280'-1850' - ASL, Late in the evening.

    Results: It's pretty damn good ladies and gentlemen!

    • Pulls clean everywhere
    • Mid-range is flawless
    • Pulls harder/faster through 7k-9.5k top
    • Has that nice wheelie characteristic, smooth and controlled
    • No fluttering or surging on/off throttle
    • No hanging idle, though it does move around a bit. A small price.
    Don't know about hot starting, someone get back to me on that cause it's way late and I'm headed to bed

    Those settings in the Matrix are correct Flanny. Despite having different exhaust Tony's settings above are the same as mine with maybe a slight difference in my front IMS (2.35). This was an excellent result for those running a pre filter.

    I tried the 2clip position with this setup and only road a kilometer before heading back to the garage and then raised the needle and BINGO It was "all over red rover" That was last November, haven't touched it since:lol3


    PS Thanks a million for your advice with that motomaster. Your help made it to easy:D
    Get that SE Pump on yours....... What a brake!!!!!
    #27
  8. ADVJake

    ADVJake ***** dweller

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2004
    Oddometer:
    4,341
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    Is that the FCR settings, k2m?
    If so, what is the fuel consumption now?
    #28
  9. Flanny

    Flanny Flanny-it-up!

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2003
    Oddometer:
    2,739
    Location:
    Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, the World, the Universe
    Cool.

    Ok - here's the only other question. Will the DNA plus Uni make a big difference in settings over the Stock + Uni? Remember - I want to run the DNA+Uni combo for a completely washable set-up.

    Here's an ealier quote from CPWoody's in a previous thread..."I ran it close to that (42, 80/95) with the DNA and the UNI which should be pretty close to running the stock filter only. Cans with or w/o inserts should make a pretty big difference too."

    So he was running a 42 with 80/95. I'm running a 45 with 80/100, 2nd clip...I still think I'm too rich, but you guys have 1.5 more IMS turns, plus 45 FJ, plus 3rd clip.

    I tried going back to 42 Pilot Fuel jet, but needed IMS at 3 turns to peak idle RPM, even with 3rd clip on the needle. Switched to 45 Idle Fuel Jet, and needed to turn down the IMS to .75 before I could get the idle to pick up. I'm pretty sure that Rory suggested that I back off the needle to 2nd clip since there is a slight influence on the idle circuit (esp with the 45 PFJ).

    So...this all leads me to believe I'm still too rich on the idle circuit. You guys are suggesting that I fatten it up even more???

    Just want to be sure that you lads think that the same settings pretty much apply with the DNA as well...I'm game to tear into it again (for the 80th time it seems), but want to double check for the DNA+UNI combo...

    I'm really scratching my head on this one..these carbs are definitely a challenge without the analysis gear. Note also that my bike is exhibiting the easy to start cold w/ some choke but hard to start hot without fluttering throttle symptom. Checked float hight and seems to be fine at stock setting.
    #29
  10. Flanny

    Flanny Flanny-it-up!

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2003
    Oddometer:
    2,739
    Location:
    Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, the World, the Universe

    See my previous post with some 'splainin'. I agree - the settings seem downright bizarre...but idle doesn't hang at all, and it idles quite nicely..

    Most of th settings that have consensus are around either stock plus pre-filter, or DNA alone. There aren;t any settings in the matrix for both the DNA and the UNI together (I don;t think).

    Another problem is that I don't have 100% confidence in the other attributes of the bike...Carb sync, valve clearances etc since I have not done those personally. Perhaps my AFR's are spot-on, and my somewhat unsatisfactory running conditions are due to other basics...it's hard to say without a Dyno or Wide-band.

    All I know is that between 1/8-1/4 throttle at cruise and under slight load it doesn't run right, plus its hard to start when hot...could be jetting, could be an exhaust valve out of spec. Dunno...but it's been frustrating to say the least.

    I could just give up on the DNA, and pop my stock filter back in there, crank out my IMS to 2.5 and move the needle to clip 3, and then have the same settings as everyone else...but...I really want to make the fully washable solution work if at all possible....
    #30
  11. mxc300

    mxc300 Adventurer

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2007
    Oddometer:
    55
    Location:
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    I would DEFINATELY sync the carbs before touching any jetting.
    #31
  12. K2m

    K2m Long timer

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2005
    Oddometer:
    2,253
    Location:
    Sydney
    No Jake thats for the standard CVs.

    I'm still collecting parts for the FCR project. Ken (PowerCell) was kind enough to PM me his jetting settings so I have a good base to begin. Also I was able to get the same K&N's and adaptors as Ken

    I would really like to see a conclusion to this jetting saga as I could complete a promise I made to 950 owners, that I made when I introduced my self in Hotmail user groups. This is before we moved over to Adventure Rider. I said that I would use my wideband tuning- Fuel injection background to get this bike sorted. I knew bugger all about carburetors. I think I learnt a lot more than I taught:lol3

    My last reading on fuel (GPS) gave me 18km per liter around town (42Lt for 760km) I carried extra fuel in my top box and ran it dry. 130km reserve with the rear tanks open.
    #32
  13. Flanny

    Flanny Flanny-it-up!

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2003
    Oddometer:
    2,739
    Location:
    Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, the World, the Universe
    Agreed - I need to geta hold of my buddies nice vac. gauge set-up, and do it this weekend all at once...
    #33
  14. K2m

    K2m Long timer

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2005
    Oddometer:
    2,253
    Location:
    Sydney
    The $64,000 question......... I don't know:lol3

    There is only two ways to find out, but I don't want to buy one now with the FCR's so close.

    It's interesting that my pre filter is different to the Uni. As I did mine first, I hunted round for a suitable size filter. Mine is of a KLR 650. This does not seem to matter. cmwoodys reports no difference between the two, paper and DNA.......... So........ Give it a go Flanny. Lead the way
    #34
  15. cpmodem

    cpmodem Orange Caveman

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2004
    Oddometer:
    7,130
    Location:
    masa yee yah tee 59° 14' 9" N / 135° 26' 42" W
    After reading your earlier post as you suggested, it makes a lot more sense. I have no experience with the DNA, but lots with K&Ns (not in the 950), so I can't help you there. Worthy goal though. Do you think you'll have to clean the DNA much with a pre-filter? I just put over 20k miles (3k offroad) on my uni/stock setup, and the paper filter is as pristine as brand new. I changed the pre every night (except one :freaky) while riding offroad with my friends. One other question. Did your bike run OK with the uni + paper filter?
    #35
  16. Flanny

    Flanny Flanny-it-up!

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2003
    Oddometer:
    2,739
    Location:
    Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, the World, the Universe
    I never tried the Paper + Uni. My goal all along was for the DNA+pre. The objective has been to have a fully cleanable set-up (almost never needing to clean the DNA as you've pointed out) that presents the least amount of unecessary incremental restriction (ie: the DNA +UNI should be significantly less restrictive overall than the Paper+UNI).

    Problem is, I've never been good at differentiating a tad lean from a tad rich, and to this day experimenting and hunting for the solution even the bike half apart to ride around on is very, very time consuming. Considering the CV chrateristics and sensitivity to vaccum changes it's been a bear.

    My theory so far is that the DNA presents less of a restriction overall than the Pre+paper. But, at high RPM, the "pinch point" will likely be the Pre-filter, and this will determine main jets. On the idle circuit, I suspect the DNA presents less signal (vaccum) to the fuel jets than the Paper+pre, making the idle circuit likely need to be richer than paper+pre. So, I should be fatter than everyone else (ie, smaller ACV jets for any given Pilot fuel jet), but that doesn't seem to be the case...My set-up seems to be calling for leaner than paper+pre.

    On the needle it's anyone's guess. It's all very complicated, and without a wide-band, it's really just guess work...

    Maybe I need to just stuff the paper filter in there, and just ride it like that until the snow flies!.....
    #36
  17. cpmodem

    cpmodem Orange Caveman

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2004
    Oddometer:
    7,130
    Location:
    masa yee yah tee 59° 14' 9" N / 135° 26' 42" W
    Could there be another production from Flannywood in the works this winter?
    #37
  18. uk_mouse

    uk_mouse Aquatic adventurer

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2006
    Oddometer:
    2,076
    Location:
    UK
    Out of interest, those people with "hot start" problems - what fuel pump are you using?

    I have a wild theory that the facet pump puts out a bit too much pressure, I'm still waiting for some parts to arrive to make a jetted fuel return line to reduce the pressure to the carbs. I did buy a fuel regulator but it's too big to install on the bike - the chap that sold it to me said in general the fuel pressure going into the float valves only wants to be about 1 psi.

    However, a thought just occurred to me - if, for example, the pump puts out 2 psi, does the fact that the fuel line splits in two mean that each carb will be getting 1 psi? Is that how it works?
    #38
  19. StevenD

    StevenD Hmmmm, dirt!

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2005
    Oddometer:
    1,512
    Location:
    Holland, Amserdammed
    No, pressure does not split up, only the amount of fuel does.
    #39
  20. Flanny

    Flanny Flanny-it-up!

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2003
    Oddometer:
    2,739
    Location:
    Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, the World, the Universe

    Not likely...The bike is almost perfect. I just need to add a few things for a trip I'll be doing next year...driving lights, and maybe an under-seat fuel tank..nothing really major...We'll see how deep the snow gets, and how bored I get with the long evenings!

    Flannywood huh? I like it!
    #40