H2W Jetting Matrix

Discussion in 'Dakar champion (950/990)' started by Head2Wind, Oct 9, 2007.

  1. K2m

    K2m Long timer

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    Ok

    A denser air has more oxygen in it and thus requires more fuel to bring the AFR's up....... so you are right. But it is good to clear that up for me as we do not get to ride much in altitude here so I do not get the chance to read the wideband and compare.:D

    Good to see you are on the ball:lol3
    #61
  2. cpmodem

    cpmodem Orange Caveman

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    Sometimes it helps to just think of the internal combustion engine as a big air compressor.
    #62
  3. Flanny

    Flanny Flanny-it-up!

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    This weekend I should be able to go riding around with only the left tank on...:evil

    What I plan to do is very small adjustments, one at a time.
    1) Lean out the air side with 40/90/100...If that isn't enough...
    2) Bring the fuel screws in by a 1/4 turn...If that isn't enough...
    3) Bring the fuel screws in by another 1/4 turn...If that isn't enough...
    4) Go to a 2 1/2 half clip on the needle
    5) Check mains with throttle chop and rear spark plug to confirm. If they are good, leave them alone and go back down to the smaller carb circuits. If they are rich, drop one on the mains and go with 138, 140 (Although that seems VERY lean to me).

    It's just gonna take some time!
    #63
  4. K2m

    K2m Long timer

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    I looked further into air density and its effect on mixture. In one way I was right on less pressure leaning AFR's, but another factor which is the decrease in oxygen has a stronger effect on AFR's. There is a ratio to use where AFR's are critical such as in racing........ with an decrease in density of 12% you automatically have a decrease of pressure on your fuel so you only lean off by 5%.

    So Flanny with this in mine you will not have to make large changes
    #64
  5. cpmodem

    cpmodem Orange Caveman

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    Don't make us come up there ...
    :freaky
    #65
  6. Head2Wind

    Head2Wind MotorcycleMayhem

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    Hey everyone,
    I have been doing a little cleaning up and additions to the spreadsheet.

    If there was no data entered then I made the assumption that it was as stock and entered that data. I also removed any non numerics as this messes up the graphing functions.


    The only thing that I can not baseline is the elevations of bikes listed. If you can take the time to check to see if you elevation is entered and if not make one an entry, that would be great. It does not have to be perfect. I have used my garage elevation as my listing.

    Cheers, :freaky
    Ken
    #66
  7. mgorman

    mgorman Crashing since 1964

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    Where is there a good source for the 45 pilots? 3 dealers and KTM have told me they are not available.
    #67
  8. EnduroAddict

    EnduroAddict n00b

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    #68
  9. Head2Wind

    Head2Wind MotorcycleMayhem

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    #69
  10. Flanny

    Flanny Flanny-it-up!

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    So...


    Here is where I wound up.

    40/90/100 on the Air side of the Pilot Cicuit, 45 on the fuel side. Screws 2 1/4 out front and back.

    Stock needle on the 3rd clip.

    145 and 150 Mains front and rear (is getting mighty cold up here - 34 F or so, two steps up on the mains for temp correction).

    The whole shebang runs quite nicely at these temps, but I'm sure it will be too rich for warmer days next spring.
    #70
  11. jaydee1445

    jaydee1445 Footpeg Crash Tester

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    Why the h2w over factory pro?
    I've looked at his kit, but it looked like a one size fits all and must use the pre filter. His is $85 and the factory pro ti kit is $99. Is the factory pro just mains? I ordered one for Coltgovt's 06 S.

    I just set finished setting the Floats to 3mm needles to 3and mixture screws to 1.5 f 1.75 rear with 160f and 165r mains the rest of jets and airbox stock. I'm @ 0 feet here in Flatistian.
    Same settings as flame rider.Seems to be much smoother and stronger especially in the mid range.
    #71
  12. wsmc99

    wsmc99 Been here awhile

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    FYI

    The setup on my bike was good, but just a bit lean.
    I was prepping to sell it and put the stock pipes on it and it seems just right!

    My buddy bought my pipes and wanted to do the whole jetting setup, so I had him get 142/145 vs. 140/142. Voila! Perfect! Idle was dead stable all other settings are the same.
    #72
  13. Head2Wind

    Head2Wind MotorcycleMayhem

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    The appearance of one size fits all is not completely true. I select jets and make recommendations based upon the elevation of the garage of the bike. Typically 0-2000, 2000-4000 then 4000 and beyond all get different jets. There are a couple of other tweaks that I do also. The value in the solution is detailed installation instructions, specific jet and settings for each bike and personal install support if necessary.

    The Factory Pro kit comes with a bunch of main jets (you get to figure out which ones to use, but they do offer some suggestions), a pair of pilot jets, Ti needles and a few other things. The problem is that without a couple tweaks that do not come in the kit it will work "OK". Typically most report poor fuel economy. The FP kit will still run with a Prefilter but it will be WAY rich in the middle (function of the needle and a couple other things, but mostly needle related) The install instructions are sparse so if you have never done this kind of work before then you better take it to someone who has. If you want to do a non prefitler solution then the FP needle will work, but there are other things that need to be done to solve some of the other issues that are not detailed much of anywhere.

    My opinion:

    The FP kit can be made to work and there are a bunch of them installed out there. It requires specific development for each installation.

    The package of jets combined with the prefilter that I have put together works very well as a install and run solution. Most anyone with the ability to follow instructions and spin wrenches can do it.
    #73
  14. jaydee1445

    jaydee1445 Footpeg Crash Tester

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    Sounds cool! A custom kit sounds like just the ticket for most.:thumb Support is worth the entry fee.
    Saying your kit works with only the pre filter is where I get the one size fits all. What if I want to keep the stock air box set up. If I'm not restricting the air flow do I really to open up the IAJ? The matrix shows only Uni users upping the IAJ.
    #74
  15. Head2Wind

    Head2Wind MotorcycleMayhem

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    W/O a prefilter it is true that with the stock needle and the stock pilot jet that increasing the idle air would be a bad thing for sea level to 4k.
    #75
  16. Just Bob

    Just Bob Been There Done That

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    Sorry to threadjack, but since all the tuning gurus are here and I've been following this thread getting ready to tune... I pulled the carbs for the first time today doing the SAS and canectomy and found flakey white deposits on the rear carb butterfly and a holed boot. Since I just had the 600m service done, should I talk to the shop? The boot seemed to seal okay (reinstalled with hi-temp silicone brake grease) and I didn't notice any difference in performance after the service. Or... is the rear just running real lean. I'm at 5000 feet ASL, Leo Vince pipes with rear db killers and about 900 miles on the bike. Also, for the carb vents I left them in the "Y" and ran out a 5" tail out the airbox, figuring that was about the length of the through vent on the discarded evap valve. Is that kosher?

    Thanks in advance. I'm learning a lot from these discussions and links.

    This is both carbs, bottom view - rear carb on top in pic;
    [​IMG]

    Close up pic - undersid of rear butterfly;

    [​IMG]

    Here is a pic of the rear boot showing a tear in the manifold seal ring - top of pic;

    [​IMG]


    Outside view of seal showing penetration of tear - almost seems like a manu. defect.;

    [​IMG]

    thanks guys...
    #76
  17. cpmodem

    cpmodem Orange Caveman

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    The damaged boot looks like the clamp was improperly positioned at one time. Additionally, it appears to have been overtightened. The tear is a common result of forcing the boots onto the manifolds while attached to the carbs. The manifold-side clamp was probably not loosened enough either.
    #77
  18. Head2Wind

    Head2Wind MotorcycleMayhem

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    SNIP>>>>>I pulled the carbs for the first time today doing the SAS and canectomy and found flakey white deposits on the rear carb butterfly and a holed boot. Since I just had the 600m service done, should I talk to the shop?<<<<<SNIP< p>

    I would be going to them to replace that manifold boot. That is not a defect of manufacture it is the result of poor workmanship.


    The boot seemed to seal okay (reinstalled with hi-temp silicone brake grease)<<<<SNIP< p>

    ditch the grease. I assemble with no lube, clean/dry manifolds. CP and I have different opinions on lubing the manifolds, but silicone grease will not disipate and therefore will continue to be present increasing the odds of the carbs coming off the manifolds.

    SNIP>>>>and I didn't notice any difference in performance after the service. Or... is the rear just running real lean. I'm at 5000 feet ASL, Leo Vince pipes with rear db killers and about 900 miles on the bike.<<<


    SNIP>>>>Also, for the carb vents I left them in the "Y" and ran out a 5" tail out the airbox, figuring that was about the length of the through vent on the discarded evap valve. Is that kosher?<<<SNIP< p>

    the carbs are very vent sensitive. My usual solution includes ditching the Y and creating two separate vent tubes, one is 275mm for the front carb and one is 250mm for the rear, both pass down through the lower air box and terminate in the root of the V of the engine.


    also, as CP pointed out, the manifolds go onto the engine, (ensure that the little "tangs" that retain the upper clamps are "clocked" properly to position/retain the upper clamps so you can get onto them to tighten them after the carbs are installed/inserted), clamped to the engine, THEN the carbs go onto the manifolds, front first then with a firm forward/down pressure the rear carb will go in. Make sure that the upper clamps are almost completely unscrewed/loose PRIOR to attempting to reinstall the carbs.

    another thing to note: early bikes do not have clamp limiters and therefore can cause damage by being over tightened. The later models, I believe 05 or 05.5 and later have limiters on the clamps. I run the clamps all the way to the limiters on the later models for both upper and lower clamps. The early models is a "by feel" torque setting for the uppers as you can not see them. All that over tightening will do is distort the clamp then potentially sheer/rip the manifolds
    #78
  19. cpmodem

    cpmodem Orange Caveman

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    I don't recommend silicone grease. Silicone spray is sometimes useful in certain applications and dissipates into the rubber. I don't use any lube on the LC8 carb boots, as described in the step-by-step I posted earlier.
    Just sayin'
    :freaky
    #79
  20. Head2Wind

    Head2Wind MotorcycleMayhem

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    OK, thanks for the clarity... and I know you would not use or suggest to use silly cone greeze
    #80