Hard Starting 950?

Discussion in 'Crazy-Awesome almost Dakar racers (950/990cc)' started by Texmoto1, Feb 13, 2006.

  1. Texmoto1

    Texmoto1 Adventure Berzerker

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    I have a 2 week old 950 Adventure that just doesnt like to start. I end up having to crank the thing several times for 7 or so seconds at a time before it fires up. After it starts it runs and acts normally. If I shut it down and emmediately restart it.. no problem. If I leave it for more than even a minute I have to crank like crazy! Sometimes it acts like its flodded, and if I open the thing wide open it slowly cranks to life. The bike has not had its 600 mile service yet, and Curtiss said he will sort it out at that time, but I would rather not deal with the problem that long. Any ideas?
    #1
  2. Pantah

    Pantah Jiggy Dog Fan from Scottsdale Supporter

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    when you stopped after a refuel, shut off motor and walked away, your hot motor expanded fuel in tanks and the pressure backed fuel into your evap cannister though the tank vent hoses. maybe you have another problem, but what i discribe is common. the evap cannister will dry out in a few days and it'll be normal until the next time you refuel to the tippy top and walk away. the same thing can happen if you drop it. the cannister fills with gas and the motor starts like its flooded. if doesn't clear up in a few days take it in.

    for the future you may want remove the evap cannister system after your warranty expires. or you may want to simply unplug the vent hose between the tanks at the connector under your headlight. i got into the habit of not filling to the top, and then if i needed to stop and leave it for a few minutes right after, i popped open the gas caps until i came back. eventually, though, i just removed the evap system. hope that helps. -pantah
    #2
  3. ktmMike

    ktmMike Long timer

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    texmoto,
    Both of my 950s did that a lot when they were new, until I installed the Sportluftfilterdeckel from the Sommer catalog. It is a triangle shaped replacement for one of the airbox sidecovers (www.sommer.com or something like that). Sometimes, on hot days, my 950s would even cut out whenever I would come to a stop at a stop sign or whatever. When I installed the cover, all that stopped immediately (also you have to raise the carb needles one notch when you install).
    #3
  4. teabagger

    teabagger Been here awhile

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    Goto the Jetting thread and see my post. I also have removed the SAS.

    JM
    #4
  5. jimmex

    jimmex Guero con moto Supporter

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    I had the exact same symptoms on my '05 950. The problem is most likely an air leak.
    #5
  6. trident

    trident Town Idiot

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    Have you tried turning on the GAS!! :rofl(I actually had this problem after doing my valve adjustment - I remember the tank valves but forgot the main petcock... boy was that a scare).

    Just kidding, mine used to do the same thing. Sometimes stalling at stoplights and it would take me a fist full of throtle to get it going again. In short your machine is way to lean and it is causing a problem with the evap canister (same as above).

    You should get as many miles to service as possible then undergo the SAS and Canisterectomy asap! Also as everyone has told me adjust your needles to the 3rd position or so and VOLA!

    Everyone here has been a great big help to me while I get my machine sorted out, just wanted to pass on some.

    OH by the way the Blue ones are way faster...! :rofl
    #6
  7. AntWare

    AntWare Lost In Translation

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    I'll go with Pantah, until it's been de-cannistered don't fill 'er up.
    Only other thing that comes to mind re the stalling is maybe it's idling too low, works great if you set it at 1400rpm, no less.

    Good luck
    #7
  8. Foto Veloce

    Foto Veloce The Free Radical

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    I just had my bike serviced and immediatly took a 2200 mile trip to CA. First couple of days where fine. However when I got to CA after my first fillup it's been really hard to start up (even when cold but that seemed to be my bad since I'd become accustomed to starts in a climate 20F cooler).

    The hard starting is not going away. I still have all the emissions junk installed. Reading this and a couple of other threads it seems that the evap could be causing this. My buddy also noted that during the hard starts it seemed like the bike was puffing fuel so that matches up with the rich diagnosis from evap can fumes/fuel?

    My biggest worry is that something happened to lower the compression and this cracking open the throttle increases air volume into the cylinders and that helps it light off pretty quick.

    Idle was set at 1400 by the shop and if the tach is close to accurate it looks like the idle is dead on (I also wondered if idle was too low after easier start with cracked open throttle).

    Anyone have this rather specific symptom and get it 100% resolved with the evap removal or some other update/repair? With 3200 miles on it's well under warranty but I don't want to waste time and money at the shop to look for a major issue when one might not exist.

    Damn this website kicks bootie!!
    #8
  9. jimmex

    jimmex Guero con moto Supporter

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    My bike did the exact same thing and the problem was a leak in the vacuum resulting from torn hose going from the airbox to somewhere. Sounds like the same is occuring with yours.
    #9
  10. inte

    inte neophyte serendipity

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    I'll cast another vote for the ectomies...

    Do a search on "canisterectomy" ... you'll see all sorts of people (including me) who've experienced the same thing on various model years of the 950s.

    Just finished a ride with Scot Harden in Virginia ... Johnathan Edwards (KTM factory team physician at Dakar) was on a BRAND NEW 950S ... if you check out the thread (linked to Scot's name above) you'll see a blue/orange 950S (only one on the tour) ... he had a pretty serious getoff & the canister & TPC valves filled up ... had to truck the bike back.

    That emissions stuff is nuts. Unless you only ride pavement, and are VERY careful about how you fill the bike, it will completely disable the thing.

    Mine did the same thing ... once I took it off the fix was immediate & permanent. Haven't had a single issue since & have been through some decently nasty terrain.


    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
    #10
  11. Texmoto1

    Texmoto1 Adventure Berzerker

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    It seems that some miles and a full cannisterectomy has cured my problem? When the first service was done, It was also mentioned that my intake valves were tight?
    #11
  12. Foto Veloce

    Foto Veloce The Free Radical

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    3200 miles on bike.
    Oil & filter at 640 miles
    Full service at 2040 (exhaust valves were tight)

    No problems with hot-start until 2nd day of trip started right after service. Pops A LOT on decel so I don't think it's rich in the carbs. All this canister stuff or maybe a vaccum hose was left off or loose by the mechanics?

    I don't really have a garage at the moment (sold house and renting space until I buy another house) but maybe I can ectimize part of the system this week and see if that straightens it out. A loose vaccum hose would be a nice 'fix' if that is all it is but then why would it have come off.. that concerns me if it turns out to be the case.

    Also on my list is moving the needle clips to #3 (now is that counting from the blunt end or needle end or are there 5 possitions and thus does not matter?) LOL
    #12
  13. Texmoto1

    Texmoto1 Adventure Berzerker

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    Thats the main reason I wanted to get all the tubes and SAS and crap removed from my bike. They are a potential point of failure. If a mechanic accidently pulls on the wrong tube, or pinches one, you end up with hard to diagnose issues that can drive you nuts!
    #13
  14. jnberr0

    jnberr0 Been here awhile

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    Just last night I happened to go out for a quick ride as it's springtime here in Kentucky and the weather is beyond perfect. Anywho, I go to start my 2005.5 950 and it takes FOREVER to start. Not a weak battery as all electrics are up and the bike is cranking fine. It just took about 10 pushes of the starter to get the thing going. Once started, it idled fine and rode fine.

    When I got home, I shut down the bike to open my gate and when I went to restart it, it was hard to start again. Frustrated, I finally got the bike locked up, cracked open a Red Stripe, and hopped on ADVRider. To my relief, the very first post in Orange Crush was title "Hard Starting". I read the post and it seems like I'm not alone in my starting problems. ADVRider is the proverbial duck's nuts. Thanks everyone for keeping this site so full of info.!

    Here's my issues though: Yes, I did fill my bike all the way up and then only rode it 15-20 miles before putting it up, but that was almost a week ago. Will a filled evap canister stay filled for that long if the bike isn't started or ridden? Also, I'm still getting a horrid crack sound when the bike stalls or refuses to start. I suppose this may be that starter torque limiter that some folks have said may need replacing (KTM sent out a bad batch on some bikes, apparently?), but maybe I'm forgetting about something. Anybody have any advice on these issues?

    I'm taking my bike in for an oil change and valve adjustment this weekend. I just want to make sure I'm armed with good info before going in. And yes, I hope to do the canisterectomy and maybe a set of FMF's in the fall once the warranty's up. Thanks!!
    #14
  15. jsrider

    jsrider Long timer

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    Yes, you are moving the clip to the middle position so it doesn't matter, but in general you are trying to raise the needle, so you should be moving the clip down from the top.
    #15
  16. sedwards

    sedwards Adventurer

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    One would think for $13k, KTM would address this issue that has impacted so many purchasers. Given that there are 25-30 page strings of responses on this issue, I would expect a better solution.

    I have an 05.5 950 which I bought last summer that only has 1700 miles on it because the damn thing won't start. I've never dropped it, never overfilled the tanks and after about 4 months of ownership, it just became very reluctant to start once it was warm. I did get to spend 10 minutes in front of the BMW dealership with all the salesmen laughing because the fancy KTM wouldn't start!! That was fun. Of course, it also makes that horrible clanking noise. I finally brought it in to the dealership and gave them the link to advrider and to search "canisterectomy". They didn't seem to have any knowledge of the issues. They diagnosed it with a canister full of fuel and it was backing up into the rear cylinder, causing all that clanking that you've read so much about on this board. They've since removed the SAS and I've begged them to pull all the canister stuff. Will pick it up later this week and hope for the best.

    It does make me wish that Honda built a similar type of bike. This is my first KTM, first street bike, and by far the most expensive two wheel purchase I've ever made. Right now I have a Honda CRF-450, CRF-450X and a YZ-250 in my garage and they all seem to start just fine! KTM needs to find a fix for this that doesn't require backyard mechanics to develop their own solution.
    #16
  17. jnberr0

    jnberr0 Been here awhile

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    I agree, sedwards. I'm thinking about taking in some threads from this site when I drop my bike off this weekend. I don't want to be one of "those" customers, but maybe I can at least make sure my mechanics have all the info provided by others with my exact same problems.

    And as for KTM, it kind of bums me out, really. I think this is one of the best bikes on the planet when it's performing correctly, but there are too many of these small issues that could easily be fixed by KTM before they even leave the factory. It makes me mad because there aren't any other bikes out there that I really want right now (except for the 950SM, but that won't fix the issue!! HA!). I sold my VFR800 because I wanted something something different and the VFR was a little too appliance-like. Now I kind of miss having a bike that started on the first try EVERY time for nearly 6 years and 40,000 miles of riding. Granted, the VFR never put a grin on my face like this 950 does. It's a trade-off, I guess. I just wanna get my bike running right again (and I hope it stays that way!).
    #17
  18. canadasax

    canadasax Been here awhile

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    Have you tried this?
    http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132080
    #18
  19. jnberr0

    jnberr0 Been here awhile

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    canadasax,

    Thanks! I hadn't seen that post in my searches. I'm going try to find that plug tonight and see if I can get any drainage. At least it may give me an idea of what's going on.
    #19
  20. jimmex

    jimmex Guero con moto Supporter

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    The bike needs sorting out; once you get all this annoying stuff corrected, the bike will reward your efforts and patience. It is a total pain in the ass while your fooling with it though. I believe the hard starting (bike will start with cracked throttle) is caused by a loss of vacuum or air leak in some of the elaborate plumbing of hoses. Starter clank is subject of technical service bulletin. Might need oil jets resecured too (technical service bulletin).
    #20